German Wings A320 crashed

I'm not sure that I see that attempting to understand this guy and the pain he was going through excludes a deep, personal animosity and loathing towards him. I've known a number of clinically depressed people in my time (and I suspect a few who are walking around, undiagnosed). One of them even jumped out of a window many years ago.

I mean I suppose, ultimately, that all emotions are facile remnants of our reptile brains, etc etc. But we don't seem to have a choice about having them, and I'm not sure I'd want to. And if there's anything that deserves a whole lot of negative juju, it's killing a bunch of people you didn't know, had no quarrel with, and whose care you were personally entrusted with (and accepted).

I mean, yes, of course, obviously, it's more rational and sane to concentrate on helping people who are stricken with this, eh, what, "condition" than to spend a lot of time being self-righteous. But that doesn't make disgust and/or loathing inappropriate, IMHO.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I'm not sure that I see that attempting to understand this guy and the pain he was going through excludes a deep, personal animosity and loathing towards him. I've known a number of clinically depressed people in my time (and I suspect a few who are walking around, undiagnosed). One of them even jumped out of a window many years ago.

I mean I suppose, ultimately, that all emotions are facile remnants of our reptile brains, etc etc. But we don't seem to have a choice about having them, and I'm not sure I'd want to. And if there's anything that deserves a whole lot of negative juju, it's killing a bunch of people you didn't know, had no quarrel with, and whose care you were personally entrusted with (and accepted).

I mean, yes, of course, obviously, it's more rational and sane to concentrate on helping people who are stricken with this, eh, what, "condition" than to spend a lot of time being self-righteous. But that doesn't make disgust and/or loathing inappropriate, IMHO.
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No, the guy was a piece of crap. No sympathy here. But how many pilots are going through exactly what he was going through but will end up killing themselves or just plugging on without the dramatic mass murder end to it all? Probably way more than any of us want to believe.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
Agreed.

Until you've lived with somebody with clinical depression for a long period of time, you can't imagine the dynamics of depression. I can't find the words to describe how horrible it is.

Most people that suffer from depression without a dual-diagnosis, even those that have suicidal ideation, rarely have any violent tendencies. In fact, the opposite is more often the case. They are often hyper-empathetic and often distance themselves from others for fear that they will emotionally hurt others as a result of their withdrawal.

I know a couple of pilots that suffer from depression. Flying is their only joy. I hope regulators don't buy into the suggestion that depressed pilots are dangerous to the public.
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My sister's empathetic like that.
 
ChasenSFO said:
You get it. Most don't. It's easier to demonize someone than to sit back and think, "Hey, maybe, just maybe, there are millions and millions of others with a brain issue that makes them feel hopeless for no reason and we should worry more about addressing that than changing the locks on cockpit doors". But that requires some deep logic that would make people roll their eyes and switch to Fox News.
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Random thoughts since we're all spitballing about depression.

You state "millions and millions" suffer from this. Maybe so, on a planet of seven billion it's possible. But true clinical depression - how common is that? I'm talking about your sister being normal and such one day, and the next she's in a hospital so she doesn't off herself? As I said, I've never suffered from this or known anyone well that did... but how common can it be? OR is a LOT of depression a construct of the pharmaceutical industry and their need to sell product? Is a lot of it peoples need to "be happy" because media, Madison avenue, and such are constantly pushing this "need" to be happy 24/7/365? How many people are influenced by the commercial culture into unhappiness for whatever reason be it the lack of a BMW, or some other reason? How many people seek "happiness" from a career, go deeply in debt to pursue it only to find out they're a number on a page (motor oil) and that doesn't line up with the college brochure or financial aid guy and what THEY said? Perhaps all the people experiencing "life" and it's disappointments are the multitude of the "depressed" ones and that masks the truly nutty people (needle in a haystack theory).
 
ChasenSFO said:
No, the guy was a piece of crap. No sympathy here. But how many pilots are going through exactly what he was going through but will end up killing themselves or just plugging on without the dramatic mass murder end to it all? Probably way more than any of us want to believe.
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How many pilots suffer with clinical depression? Many. How many entertain homicidal thoughts? Very few. Few pilots are going through "exactly" what this guy was going through.
 
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Pilot Fighter said:
How many pilots suffer with clinical depression? Many. How many entertain homicidal thoughts? Very few. Few pilots are going through "exactly" what this guy was going through.
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How about suicidal thoughts? If you feel nothing, you feel no empathy, no sympathy, you don't care about anyone or anything. I can totally see his attitude being "I don't want to live, so I'm just going to crash this plane into the mountain. What are they going to do, arrest me?". Not necessarily wanting to murder people, but just an attitude of "I could care less". It's a thin line but luckily most are more morally sound then to do such a thing.

But to entertain what you said, ok, sure, let's say very few are going through EXACTLY what this guy went through. All it takes is one. Pilots need better access to drugs and help, knowing full well that if they leave to better their mental state, they'll be welcomed back with open arms so long as they aren't medicated for the trip(though I'd argue flying during deep depression is more dangerous and distracting than flying on Xanax or similar in a mutli crew environment). There's this huge stigma against drugs, but let's say Jerry the pilot is going thru a bad divorce, can't pay the bills, and is on the edge of giving up on life. He wants to feel better so he puffs down a fat blunt of weed 2 days before the trip to unwind and clear his head a bit, he then feels much better. Is he high right now? No? Ok cool, I'll strap right in to the back of his jet and not think twice about it. Let's say he's afraid to talk about it for fears of his current psych state being "outted", he can't sleep on the over-nights, and he's having suicidal thoughts(not even about crashing the aircraft) as he stares out the window in cruise since he's done nothing to ease his mind be it talking to people, self medicating, or getting help. Would I get in that plane knowing all that? Nope nope nope AND nope.

It's the 21st Century, we need to re-think some things.
WacoFan said:
I'm talking about your sister being normal and such one day, and the next she's in a hospital so she doesn't off herself? As I said, I've never suffered from this or known anyone well that did... but how common can it be?
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I've had 2 friends kill themselves, one out of the blue, the other was always struggling but she seemed to be doing just fine and we had all just stopped worrying about her more or less. I've also had 5 or 6 go to the hospital for trying to do it after having shown no signs what so ever leaving me completely stunned. And I mean out of the blue, like I would bet million to one odds this person wouldn't kill themselves. And they actually tried, they weren't playing around. I know of many more who can be totally fine, social, and normal for a while then turn off their phone for 2 or 3 days, not even talking to their significant other, freak everyone out all to find out that they were just in a funk and didn't want to talk to anyone or leave their house. It affects a lot more people than you'd think. One day the world is your oyster, the next day you only leave the bed to eat, flake on all your plans and obligations like calling in sick to work for no reason, and keep the phone on airplane mode all day. It's real. And if affects a lot of people. A lot. Of the people I've mentioned, I'm one of maybe a small handful of people who has ANY idea they tried to kill themselves, no one else would ever guess. People open up to me, and man, is it real. I only know so many of the billions out there. Probability suggests there must be many, many sick people.
 
More pilots "off" themselves than many realize. I don't know if it's statistically higher or lower than the general population, but I know a couple guys who did.

The one that both @MQAAord and I knew was one of the top ten happiest, most gregarious men you would ever meet, but he had a hidden "demon" he, in the end, was apparently battling and lost.
 
Derg said:
The one that both @MQAAord and I knew was one of the top ten happiest, most gregarious men you would ever meet, but he had a hidden "demon" he, in the end, was apparently battling and lost.
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Same goes with one of my friends who killed himself. True story, he closed a $15,000 commission deal, had a freggin threesome with a very pretty girl we went to school with and one of her friends, and then poured a bottle of prescription pills down his throat and waited to die all in the same day. You can't explain it.
 
ChasenSFO said:
Same goes with one of my friends who killed himself. True story, he closed a $15,000 commission deal, had a freggin threesome with a very pretty girl we went to school with and one of her friends, and then poured a bottle of prescription pills down his throat and waited to die all in the same day. You can't explain it.
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Nope.

But you know, it's the "comedians conundrum" — some of the best stand up comedians are some of the most deeply disturbed, dark and depressed people.
 
I was in a long term relationship with a woman that suffered from clinical depression. My best friend in college killed himself. My mother and sister are both psychologists. I have known a couple pilots that lived with clinical depression. That's my frame of reference.

I do not believe that the clinically depressed lose their rationality or empathy towards others. When they kill themselves, it is the result of quite a bit of consideration over a period of years or decades. For these folks, suicide is a rational decision to stop the pain and suffering, little more. While it might appear counter-intuitive, those that plan and commit suicide don't stop valuing any life but their own.

Once again, I'm talking about common clinical depression, not dozens of other mood disorders that might include depression among symptoms that present a risk to others. Murder-suicides are not associated with clinical depression.
 
Yes, yes, sad clown and all that. Look, it's not that I don't have sympathy for that. I think anyone with an IQ over room temperature has sympathy for the Dark Night of The Soul, etc etc. And you're absolutely right when you suggest that I don't know blah blah w/r/t clinical depression. I mean I'd make the argument that it's a continuum rather than a "disease" in the conventional sense, and that most of us have had moments along that continuum which should at least give us some sort of entree in to how this fellow (or whoever) was feeling. But I don't think I exist far enough in to the "bad" side of the continuum to comment intelligently upon it. That said, and again, I put it to you that if there is any place for "judgement", this is it. Ultimately this all comes down to a question of whether one has any agency in their actions or thoughts. I prefer to think that I do, and I swear to you here before God and The Interwebz that if I ever feel as though there's, uh, you know, "nothing left to live for", I won't make that decision for anyone else while I'm seeking the Exit Sartre wants to deny us.

Because to do otherwise would be the most colossal act of arrogance conceivable. It's not "I feel like there's nothing real enough to live for" it's "I feel like there's nothing real enough to live for and I'm going to decide for 150 other people that I'm right". Which is really just a way of saying that those 150 people didn't exist in the first place. Because, like, I decided in my head that they didn't.

It's a degree of solipsism and disregard for the reality of the existence of other human beings that I refuse to countenance, or excuse. Put another way, if you really believe, deep down, that other people are just figments of your imagination and that you are the tormented center of the universe...even if it's not your fault, it's just, you know, your brain chemicals (which, sorry, but I find that radically simple), but let's say it's not your fault. Then you shouldn't care that you're loathed, which, by extension, suggests that no one else should, either.

In conclusion, Depression is awful. And (#*$ this guy.
 
So I saw a report that he now had a vision problem on top of the depression. Could it have been a vision problem that would lead to a loss of medical that could not be masked as a psychological problem could be, that would push him to dispair?
 
@Boris Badenov -

But seriously, any understanding I have of depression is completely unrelated to the event.

They're out there and they really don't care what we think of them but it does nothing more than reinforce what they already feel when you don't approach it clinically.

Like when my FIL was battling alcoholism. He said and did a lot of crap that would get anyone else shot and his lifeless body thrown into a wood chipper. But if you have contact, you have to approach the person and the disease separately. Well, you don't HAVE to but I found that helpful as part of his recovery team.

Hate drunk drivers all you'd like, but at the end of the day, there are still drunk drivers and we need methods and creative ideas to mitigate the risk.
 
Derg said:
Aaaaaand there goes my "reserves available" in the moderator corps.

I'm going to have to inverse assign and do jetway assignments to cover this one. :)
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Don't turn on your phone. Go down the jetbridge stairs, into ops, up to the terminal, and over to another concourse. Boom! Jetway assignments avoided! Oh wait, YOU'RE the one trying to find people. That's not something we do sir. You must have just missed me on the jetbridge.
 
Derg said:
They're out there and they really don't care what we think of them but it does nothing more than reinforce what they already feel when you don't approach it clinically.
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I'm delighted to approach it clinically. Very clinically indeed. They can be helped back in to the realization that they are one sack of chromosomes struggling to propogate themselves in an unfathomably large universe, or they can't be. And if they can't be, they should be put down as would be done to any other animal which presents an immediate threat to other lives. This is, in essence, what Civilization means. Feeling really, really bad for a sociopath doesn't mean you can't (or shouldn't) treat them as a clear, present (obvious?) threat to humankind.

I wonder whether there would be such an outpouring of angst over the death of some other sociopaths who happened to be German. Let's say maybe 1945 or so...
 
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