10 Warning Signs of a Market Crash in 2015

Options are not witchcraft. They are a leveraged financial instrument. They can be used as a form of investing, but are mostly used by active traders as a form of speculation (as opposed to futures which are used by companies for firm cost inputs, but also by speculators). Lots of very smart people have spent decades coming up with mathematical formula and computer programs to give them an edge. An individual deciding to use options as a financial vehicle needs to either be very good or very lucky (or both) in order to profit from them over the long term. The average joe "investor" would have better luck going to Vegas and putting it on red or black.
 
fly22 said:
Elaborate, what have you personally learned? Any life experience with it or is it book experience only?
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So you expect me to throw my money away on something that I know doesn't work? No thanks. If I'm going to do that, I'll just go to Vegas and put it all on black.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Yep, witchcraft. Sorry if it offends you so deeply that someone disagrees with you.
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It doesn't offend me any. It's just obvious to the rest of the group that you're out of your element and are just dancing around the subject now. The usual way you act when you're wrong and are trying to save face. You'll just bluster through the rest of the thread rather than discuss head on, or simply, gosh, learn something new.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
So you expect me to throw my money away on something that I know doesn't work? No thanks. If I'm going to do that, I'll just go to Vegas and put it all on black.
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You didn't answer my question. What did you learn? How do YOU know it doesn't work?

Stop side stepping and answer the question.

Educate us on what you know about options and or futures.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
If that's what you choose to believe, then be my guest. We'll see who has the bigger retirement nest egg in about 35 years.
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You can never be wrong can you.

Try this approach.

" Guys options and futures don't work for me. It's not an instrument that I use or am willing to use because it doesn't fit the parameters I need. I think it's voodoo but obviously many people have been successful with them."

Instead we get, " let's compare in 35 years." Serious? Why don't you just compare now?

You still haven't answered any questions and have failed to prove you know anything about any instrument apart from single equities. Which is fine you don't have to prove anything, but do people a favor and stop talking like you're the authority on issues that you aren't.
 
fly22 said:
You just proved his point with a post like this.
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I'm not trying to disprove his point. Trying to convince a trader that trading is a mistake is like trying to convince a Christian fundamentalist that Jonah didn't actually spend time in the belly of a "great fish." In other words, it's a waste of time.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I'm not trying to disprove his point. Trying to convince a trader that trading is a mistake is like trying to convince a Christian fundamentalist that Jonah didn't actually spend time in the belly of a "great fish." In other words, it's a waste of time.
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My point is that you've never been a trader, never dealt with futures, never dealt with options, and therefore have no authority on the subject. The trouble is, you talk as an authority in these threads, and it may convince others that you have more experience than you actually do.

In other words: I don't care what you do. I care about someone with little experience putting themselves out there to the membership as an authority. Same if you started posting about techniques for flying a 767.
 
And just to add, it's not "either/or." Most of us here also have long-term portfolios.
 
dasleben said:
My point is that you've never been a trader, never dealt with futures, never dealt with options, and therefore have no authority on the subject.
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No one needs to trade futures or options in order to see statistical data and learn from it. It's an absolutely idiotic assertion that someone needs to use faulty investment strategies in order to comment on why they are faulty. And you know it.
 
You still haven't answered my original questions.

What have you learned regarding options and futures?

Tell us what you know or have you already disclosed all that you know on the matter.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
No one needs to trade futures or options in order to see statistical data and learn from it. It's an absolutely idiotic assertion that someone needs to use faulty investment strategies in order to comment on why they are faulty. And you know it.
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Ah, you're claiming you have statistical data showing that options aren't profitable? Oh my, please do share.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
That the long term returns are less than what you would achieve by investing in index funds. That's all that matters.
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I'm willing to bet that most people on here talking about options and futures trading have a (probably multiple) long term portfolio, and most likely invest that money in index funds. I don't know for sure though. I guess I'm confused here. Without going back and reading the other pages, are @fly22 and @dasleben suggesting to invest a nest egg in nothing but options and futures? I thought they were just saying it is another method to hedge, or possible additional cash flow (that can then be reinvested in the long term portfolio).
 
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