Spirit rolls on

ATN_Pilot said:
No, it was a fancy way of saying "you'd better watch yourself." Thank God you guys finally got ALPA.
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Well absolutely. But I am 100% in favor of performance reviews in non-seniority industries. Gotta get those bonuses. Hope the CS field stays non-union heh.
 
Seggy said:
You really don't get it do you?
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I get it. Favoritism, cronyism, management kiss types, getting in trouble for sick/fatigue calls. The rest of America is the same way and they make it work. The weak are eliminated.

8 yrs into professional flying, perfect attendance at 9E, only 1 sick call at VX. That's one absence in 8 yrs and it was due to the flu. I'm not the type who would be on management radar. I don't have anything against merit. Merit would also allow an airline to fire someone with multiple (4+) training failures and prevent future accidents. Something the union types don't like to admit, some people just aren't cut for flying and shouldn't be pushing a lawnmower let alone fly a passenger airliner.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Something the union types don't like to admit, some people just aren't cut for flying and shouldn't be pushing a lawnmower let alone fly a passenger airliner.
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Actually, as a 'union type' you call it, I do admit that some people shouldn't be flying.

What you don't get is that if a company has proper procedures in place, they shouldn't see a cockpit. If they do, there are ways the company has at their disposal to get rid of that person in a proper way.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Why not in seniority industries? Performance matters everywhere else.
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Because we have to have the same performance. It's a safety issue. It's not a safety issue to kiss ass (you can totally say ass) and be a great programmer (well Thorac-25 aside). No Union would ever be beneficial to a programmer since your skill level and experience is no-one else's. You can essentially negotiate your own salary. You are not going to need "disciplinary" protection, because the threat of you leaving and taking your knowledge and skills elsewhere is too great.
 
wheelsup said:
Sprit's CEO is former US, a higher up guy in route planning or something. During the bankruptcies there was some strong evidence he was sabotaging the airline, putting the wrong equipment on city pairs. The union brought this up and he soon left, and went to start up Spirit.

What a F'ed up industry.

I'd like to see AA go to a high end market like Delta, but then the cattle class be similar to Spirit. Only way you'll check the ULCC growth, look at RyanAir, they've decimated the European legacies.

Of note is RyanAir apparently hires its pilots on contract, something that will probably make its way over here soon enough.
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Spirit was not a start up in 2005! Ben Baldanza was SVP for Marketing and Planning. He authored the South American expansion out of FLL for USAIRWAYS. When the company decided not to go that way since they were on the verge of Chapter 7 and since they were on the verge of chapter 7, Ben left for Spirit where he executed the South American expansion out of FLL. He was really great and approachable until Bill Franke entered the picture. After that he just wasn't around as Bill controlled. Relationships have improved considerably since Bill is gone.

I don't know about the other stuff you posted about him. Where do you guys go to dream up rumors? geez.
 
Seggy said:
If anything, I think Spirit and Frontier may be positioning themselves that when/if they do merge they are creating overlap (such as in ATL) to play the DOJ merger approval game. They are in a sense creating overlap so when they merge, it appears they are 'working with' the DOJ if one of them brings down a route out of ATL rather than give up a more lucrative one.


.
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This. I would say 5 years maybe till a merger.
 
wheelsup said:
Sprit's CEO is former US, a higher up guy in route planning or something. During the bankruptcies there was some strong evidence he was sabotaging the airline, putting the wrong equipment on city pairs. The union brought this up and he soon left, and went to start up Spirit.

What a F'ed up industry.

I'd like to see AA go to a high end market like Delta, but then the cattle class be similar to Spirit. Only way you'll check the ULCC growth, look at RyanAir, they've decimated the European legacies.

Of note is RyanAir apparently hires its pilots on contract, something that will probably make its way over here soon enough.
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Wasn't he also there when US tried their FLL experiment? Subsequently, after US pulled back their operation, and he went to Spirit, Spirit drastically increased service in FLL.
 
HRDiva said:
Spirit was not a start up in 2005! Ben Baldanza was SVP for Marketing and Planning. He authored the South American expansion out of FLL for USAIRWAYS. When the company decided not to go that way since they were on the verge of Chapter 7 and since they were on the verge of chapter 7, Ben left for Spirit where he executed the South American expansion out of FLL. He was really great and approachable until Bill Franke entered the picture. After that he just wasn't around as Bill controlled. Relationships have improved considerably since Bill is gone.

I don't know about the other stuff you posted about him. Where do you guys go to dream up rumors? geez.
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I guess I should have read the second page, for there is my answer.
 
e6bflyer said:
Spirit and Frontier are competing with the car and the bus. I flew spirit once. Never again unless I am commuting or traveling by myself and they are a last resort. You can't compare their product to either DL or WN for that matter.
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The jumpseat is one of the better seats on their planes. Unless they let you sit in "the big front seat", or I think it's the A320, the isle seat in the 2nd row isn't bad.
 
Seggy said:
That is a dangerous game to be playing. This head to head bull crap is what got this industry in trouble after deregulation. Would Spirit management be stupid enough to play this game? Absolutely. However...

If anything, I think Spirit and Frontier may be positioning themselves that when/if they do merge they are creating overlap (such as in ATL) to play the DOJ merger approval game. They are in a sense creating overlap so when they merge, it appears they are 'working with' the DOJ if one of them brings down a route out of ATL rather than give up a more lucrative one.




Not sure how big that void is. Say one wants to go from BUF to TPA now. Before, with AirTran, if they didn't get a nonstop from BUF to MCO, they would go through ATL creating an artificial bolster of that hub. Now, they are looking to go from BUF to MCO and they have to connect, that traffic is still there, but being brought through BWI.
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I don't disagree with the premise that there could be an eventual Spirit & Frontier merger, but in my opinion there is little chance this ATL expansion was to posture for a future merger. After the previous three mergers, it is fairly clear that amount of overlap will weigh heavily into the go/no-go decision on future mergers. The more overlap, the less likely the initial "blessing."

The way I look at it, this announcement is more about opportunity for Spirit, and less about merger optics or competitive capacity. They are taking 15 deliveries this year and need to find homes for those shells. ATL is one of the largest O&D's in the country as-is -- couple that with a legacy airline's largely connecting hub (leading to higher local fares), and a Southwest that has pared back capacity significantly since the AirTran acquisition (also driving up local fares), and there should be ample opportunity for Spirit to skim/cherry pick. My opinion only - take it for what it's worth.

It will be interesting to see how the industry unfolds in the next 5-10 years with both the legacies and the ULCC's getting stronger. Throw in cheap gas (for now, at least) and cheap debt, and it makes the immediate 1-5 years very, very interesting.
 
SpiceWeasel said:
Because we have to have the same performance. It's a safety issue. It's not a safety issue to kiss ass (you can totally say ass) and be a great programmer (well Thorac-25 aside). No Union would ever be beneficial to a programmer since your skill level and experience is no-one else's. You can essentially negotiate your own salary. You are not going to need "disciplinary" protection, because the threat of you leaving and taking your knowledge and skills elsewhere is too great.
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It is a patently false assumption that all pilots are of equal ability.

The overwhelming majority, though, are "good enough."
 
Autothrust Blue said:
It is a patently false assumption that all pilots are of equal ability.

The overwhelming majority, though, are "good enough."
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If I said that my mistake. It's the goal though, isn't it? There are no points awarded for keeping +- 1 degree heading, +10/-0 feet of altitude vs the PTS standards.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
No, it was a fancy way of saying "you'd better watch yourself." Thank God you guys finally got ALPA.
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My personal opinion is still out on that one. Over a year into it, and we still haven't had one negotiating session, out negotiating committee is the only one that has anything other than a chair and/or co-chair and things seem to be moving at a snail's pace. The schedule we appear to be on makes Colgan going from non-union to ALPA somewhere in the range of light speed. At the rate we're going, we MIGHT have hostage benefits TA'ed by the time the PEA we signed would have been up for review. We still haven't even managed to get dues check off worked out, yet, and that doesn't even cost the airline anything. I'm not saying the DR was a better system. What I am saying is the powers that be appear to be more interested in patting each other on the back for getting ALPA voted in and sending e-mails rather than moving forward on the things that were promised. I understand it takes a while, but when you're this far down the road after the "yes" vote, I feel we should be more stood up than we currently are.
 
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