But how does it do that? My read is those airplanes are replacement airplanes right? What's in it for a new hire? Without new hires and with large 30/mo flow doesn't that mean a shrinking airline?
Eaglevoy new TA
- Thread starter Kingairer
- Start date
But how does it do that? My read is those airplanes are replacement airplanes right? What's in it for a new hire? Without new hires and with large 30/mo flow doesn't that mean a shrinking airline?
Dexter
Hop off there, Blonde Ambition Tour
Envoy will continue to shrink, which will only eliminate captain seats and prevent true movement. They're past the point of getting a good deal (the first one) and being able to see the benefits of it.
This will be voted in with flying colors. There was a big change in attitude of the hardcore captains I'd fly with after I'd explain how PSA pilots actually make more money than the majority of our guys, the pros of the contract and how people aren't struggling at all to get new hires in those places like PSA, Compass, and Mesa.
Envoy guys will NEVER admit they screwed up the first time around, but their voting will show that they know they did.
This will be voted in with flying colors. There was a big change in attitude of the hardcore captains I'd fly with after I'd explain how PSA pilots actually make more money than the majority of our guys, the pros of the contract and how people aren't struggling at all to get new hires in those places like PSA, Compass, and Mesa.
Envoy guys will NEVER admit they screwed up the first time around, but their voting will show that they know they did.
ian
Well-Known Member
I just can't get behind that. You cant monday morning quarterback these things. The company told envoy multiple times that this was it...envoy thought they were bluffing. It kind of falls into that fool me once Shame on you fool me twice shame on me kind if thing......I think you could potentially have an argument if envoy accepted something similar....but accepting something worse? And blaming them? C'mon man. At some point you have to take some responsibility and accountability and not always blame it on someone else
/rant over
J Cole
Well-Known Member
I am perfectly willing to admit that my motivations may be at least partly seflish. I do not want to lose my job, go back to first year pay (now that I cannot afford it), and commute again. However, a ratified agreement would certainly be better for the pilot group as a whole. Those who wish to retire at Envoy may do so, those who want to flow will get there quicker, and newer pilots like me will not be stuck at the bottom of a stagnant, dying regional waiting for their pay to be cut by nearly 50% by starting over somewhere else.
If your implication is that a no vote will be better for the industry, I would reiterate what I have posted elsewhere: how did the no vote back in March accomplish that? Have pay scales across the regional industry risen? Has management been cowed into not asking for more concessions? I would argue the opposite is true. Additionally, voting no has helped bottom feeder carriers to attract more pilots and grow. How is that good for the industry?
You make some excellent points, and they are what most concern me about this TA. However, there are still a few points in our favor: many are interested in a good DFW base, Envoy will still have strong work rules outside the concessions, and, perhaps most important of all, the TA should change the current perception that Envoy is a dying carrier and at best a risky move for any newhire pilot. However, even if all of this fails and the TA fails to properly attract newhires, this TA will at least provide some fleet commitment from AAG and, with that, some stability for the future and a real motivation for management to properly staff the airline (perhaps through changing work rules/pay in the future.)
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Pilotdude3407 said:
You should heed your own advice.
Excellent question considering its likely FO votes that are needed most.
And what exactly "did we do" that Eagle now isn't going to do? You guys are unbelievable.
Keep in mind that we locked in true money making, and amazing QoL language by voting in our deal.
It has been proven to the tune of 100+ acft moving away from Eagle that AAG was not bluffing.
J Cole
Well-Known Member
It's not. The FO bonus is just paid in two installments. 7500 after signing and 5000 when they upgrade, retire age 65, or we pass Jan 1, 2017.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
ALPA has taken a dump on regional F/Os since day 1 (notice in my post I never mentioned Envoy specifically). From buying jobs to paying crap wages, splitting bonuses unequally, etc. it's pretty obvious the "I have mine" mentality that exists across the board.
roundout
VNAV monitor
I get the feeling this one is going to pass. All the people who thought they were bluffing have had their eyes opened. I recall making a statement both at work and on this site to the effect of "you can't win a rigged game with a psychopathic opponent." Bunch of the old timers thought they would just come back and give us the jets anyway. How delusional.
I voted no on the last one, mostly because at that point the bar had been held by xjt and republic. Now that the bar has been lowered, voting to save the industry is a fool's errand. If this deal will keep this broken horse hobbling another couple years, so be it. If the hiring forecasts for the next few years are even remotely accurate, a couple years is all anybody should need to find a step up.
I voted no on the last one, mostly because at that point the bar had been held by xjt and republic. Now that the bar has been lowered, voting to save the industry is a fool's errand. If this deal will keep this broken horse hobbling another couple years, so be it. If the hiring forecasts for the next few years are even remotely accurate, a couple years is all anybody should need to find a step up.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Flying with a lot of Easties I see.
Probably psychology and logistics.
The psychology of "I really don't understand this but, well, perhaps the skipper has a point, I don't know"
The logistics of replacing a captain is a lot more expensive than finding a new first officer (Look at PSA, some folks are throwing their rosaries in the river to get that sweet, sweet jet).
My angle is pure internet speculation and I really have no actual clue.
roundout
VNAV monitor
Part of the argument we hear from the folks who are 55+ and don't want to flow to American is because of the massive pay cut.this helps alleviate that, though not nearly enough, in my opinion. Most caps bring in roughly six figures, first year pay at AA is $30k. This, and the fact that ApA is negotiating a "delta plus" deal might spur some of them to move on.
First year pay is $30K at American? Hot damn, that's about half of what it is as a SouthernJets new hire.
However, the idea that one can't "afford" the first years "paycut" to flow to American is utter foolishness if you look at it from a pure financial sense.
