Iranian Air Force F-4 Phantom II spotted in eastern Iraq

SpiraMirabilis

Possible Subversive
According to Janes: http://www.janes.com/article/46514/iranian-phantom-jet-strikes-the-islamic-state-in-iraq

Bombing ISIS targets, but both Iran and US deny any "cooperation" or joint efforts.

Say what you will about the Persians, its pretty impressive technically that they've homegrown the industries necessary to keep these aircraft functioning safely. Not like they can order out for new J79's. Its also interesting that the Iranian Air Force's culture and doctrine is like a carbon copy of the USAF a few decades ago, which some might argue were better times.
 
If ISIS is accomplishing anything, they're creating some VERY strange bedfellows in that region. As Iran hates ISIS as much as these other countries do.

In Syria, supposedly Iran (being Syria's only arab ally) had troops on the ground fighting the "rebels" and ISIS near the Israel border. Israel didn't like the destabilizing of their border, and while they aren't buddy-buddy with Syria, they had more of a "neighbor we don't really deal with" relationship with Syria. Not great, but not terrible. Iran wanted air support, but couldn't fly from Iran to provide it and couldn't base their aircraft in any closer arab nations to do it. So, since Iran and Israel both had the same interests, it's said that Israel provided close air support to Iranian light ground forces against Syrian rebel and ISIS targets that were near to the Israel border.

Iranian Air Force and Army aircraft, from F-4 Phantoms to F-5 Tigers, AH-1 Cobras, and others, are hitting ISIS targets and equipment, and have been from day 1 of their attacks in Iraq. Their Cobras have been doing yeoman's work in killing M-1 tanks and M-113 APCs we gave to the Iraqis and they abandoned, as well as the former Soviet equipment and trucks. Phantoms have been hitting all kinds of ISIS fixed and mobile targets. Same as the Syrian MiG-23/27s have, Iraq SU-25s have, USAF F-15/F-16 and F/A-18s have, and Israeli F-16s have on their end of Syria. The only country who won't admit that they're essentially allying with Assad (he being the only stable being out there), is the USA. Whether or not they're all working together in some direct or indirect way, is yet to be seen.

Strange bedfellows indeed.

I've always believed that back-channel communications is always going on between the rational players of any nation, regardless of the public face they portray.

And the Iranian AF and Army, is essentially the 1970/early 80s USAF and US Army. :)
 
Very interesting interview about the Islamic State that is worth the watch if you want to learn more.

 
I don't think there's any formal coordination going on. But I'm sure there's a lot of information sharing going on, and based on the information such as targets being hit, decisions on what assets to use are being made.

I mean, does it make sense for the US to hit a target if Iran has already taken it out or vice versa?
 
Its also interesting that the Iranian Air Force's culture and doctrine is like a carbon copy of the USAF a few decades ago, which some might argue were better times.

Could you explain this better? I'm aware of the history between Iran and the U.S. including the Iranians operating the F-14 but I don't know much about USAF doctrine.
 
Could you explain this better? I'm aware of the history between Iran and the U.S. including the Iranians operating the F-14 but I don't know much about USAF doctrine.

There is actually a long history of this with the military assistance we gave countries to combat Soviet expansion.

Essentially if you bought US Aircraft (Phantoms, 104s, F-5s, etc) you got a small cadre of US pilots and maintenance guys to come over and teach you how to do what you need to know with them. They brought what they knew and the books they had learned from, so they style that we adopted with air power stood in stark contrast to the eastern bloc countries who bought into Soviet methods. It extended beyond just the basic doctrine as well down to all the service and support elements of a military service.

Really one of the only things that we do that a lot of our partner nations dont do, is maintain the Rotory/Fixed wing separation of ownership. In Id say most military setups around the world the Helicopters are owned by the Air Force where as within our military the Army has more helicopters in two CABs than the entire US Air Force.
 
Could you explain this better? I'm aware of the history between Iran and the U.S. including the Iranians operating the F-14 but I don't know much about USAF doctrine.
The USAF basically built the Iranian Air Force from the ground up. Their pilots came to the U.S. for flight training, current and former USAF personnel went to Iran to train basically all aspects. The Iranians many of which were trained in the US or even went to US universities made a conscious decision to try to copy the USAF. I don't know enough about Air Force doctrine to make any detailed comments, and it's a subject that could fill up volumes of books, though.
 
There is actually a long history of this with the military assistance we gave countries to combat Soviet expansion.

Do you really think that was the reason for Iran?

Interesting that this gifts from the west came right after, the west took down a democratically elected prime minister that got rid of all the foreign oil companies. Surprisingly right after the coup foreign oil companies took over.

Years before Iran was also invaded by the British troops for their Oil..
 
We even had Iranian Air Force air traffic controllers in training at the tech school at Keesler when I went through ATC there in
'75.
 
I think a very large portion of our military presence in the Gulf is to prevent Russian expansion, even to this day. There might be some reasons why Iran is important to us in of itself, but in my opinion, this is the real reason why they have been such a huge issue to us over the last 40 years (or more I guess if you go back to the Shah and US intervention in that timeframe).
 
Do you really think that was the reason for Iran?

Interesting that this gifts from the west came right after, the west took down a democratically elected prime minister that got rid of all the foreign oil companies. Surprisingly right after the coup foreign oil companies took over.

Years before Iran was also invaded by the British troops for their Oil..

And the fact that the Soviets had remained in Iran after WWII attempting to bolster that regime for oil agreements? Its easy to look down at all the Western foreign policies as bad so long as people completely ignore that massive Communist empire that had a demonstrated history of occupying and maintaining puppet governments to continue its expansion.

Our a-holes or their a-holes. Ill take my side.
 
So, since Iran and Israel both had the same interests, it's said that Israel provided close air support to Iranian light ground forces against Syrian rebel and ISIS targets that were near to the Israel border.

Absolutely fascinating if true.


I've always believed that back-channel communications is always going on between the rational players of any nation, regardless of the public face they portray.

I sure hope so.
 
Its nice to see the ISIS message backfiring with these alliances between enemies. I doubt that was their intention when they started this madness. Id like to see the Iranians put those Tomcats into action. All in all, it seems ISIS is starting to deteriorate in Iraq. I just read a story about European ISIS fighters wanting to go home and countless others retreated back to their countries of origin.
 
Absolutely fascinating if true.



I sure hope so.

Agreed on both points. Strange bedfellows. In terms of fascinating, think about this: the part about how would they have made the coordination work? Was it a "hey, there are these fixed targets at these coordinates, we will give you the lat/long's for them, just have some bombs get dropped on those coords, thanks."; or was it a fluid battle where the Israeli pilots would have to talk to either Iranian Forward Air Controllers on the ground to be directed/cleared to active targets in real time, or some kind of Israeli special ops personnel embedded with the Iranian special ops troops to do the same? Fascinating indeed.......

Iran and Israel with a mutual interest, and I have to believe being coordinated by each side's rational players quietly. Each still knowing that they have to still maintain their respective public facades on the world stage.

ISIS......bringing neighborhoods together like never before. :)

On the F-4 J79 engines and parts that Spira mentioned in his first post, most of those came from Israeli stocks too. The 1980s Iran/Contra affair. Regan was prohibited by Congress from funding in any way the Salvadoran Contra rebels fighting communist Sandianistas in Nicaragua. So the Reagan admin made a deal to supply TOW missiles to Iran for their AH-1s, and other ordnance and some vehicles, along with Israel providing F-4 parts to Iran; in exchange for Iran reigning in the terror factions in Palestine, as well as "paying for the items" by giving the money to the Contras instead of the USA, thus circumventing the Congressional prohibition.
 
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