jynxyjoe
Queso King
I think you're both talking about when you're already in the air, which is fine. The example was flight planning unless I completely misread.
Captain doesn't like his alternate!?
- Thread starter Luigi
- Start date
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
Which brings up the question, Fuel and load issues aside, why would a captain be such a DB about what alternate the dispatcher put down in the first place?
jynxyjoe
Queso King
What? It's an interview question for the 5% of every pilot group you have to deal with. Colgan capt did it going back to Bar Harbor from Boston when I was there. Still had to work with the guy.
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
So, do they want you to hand hold the guy, or just tell him it's a legal alternate, deal with it? Personally, I'd go the second route.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
First treat him professionally and assume he's got some sort of simple misunderstanding. Then elevate if it's purposeful behavior and he continues. Some guys, of those 5%, are just weasels and once you explain what you're seeing, they'll pretend like they were joking or pretend like "it just clicked". The good guys have bad days too where they just read something wrong or brain fart, it's happened to me.So, do they want you to hand hold the guy, or just tell him it's a legal alternate, deal with it? Personally, I'd go the second route.
That's my way anyhow.
Flagship_dxer
Penske Material
Like I mentioned it depends on your FAA safety inspectors. Some are lenient on this and some are not. Likewise some dispatchers will be by the book on this and some will not.
The dispatch release under part 121 is not just a pre-plan document under normal operations. It is a legal contract and must be amended as needed enroute. Thats why the release and amendments must be signed.
In an interview setting, companies want to make sure the person they hire understands he has joint authority with the captain. Sometimes people may think the PIC calls all the shots and might not be willing to stand up for themselves. Thats the purpose of the question. Does this guy we may hire have some backbone?
Luigi
Well-Known Member
Well when I answered this question I stood by the fact that it was in fact illegal to list PDX as an alternate and the safest available alternate was LAX. If the PIC still refused to accept that alternate I said he should contact his chief pilot.
I realize now that I should have taken a softer stance. This was one of many mistakes I made in that interview.
I realize now that I should have taken a softer stance. This was one of many mistakes I made in that interview.
pljenkins
Resident Knucklehead
Not necessarily the wrong move to get the chief pilot involved, but if you do make sure you've exhausted all available avenues to a solution first. There are situations where a pilot just simply doesn't feel comfortable with any plan you offer him. You're a dispatcher, not a salesmen. If a captain flat refuses to work with you then you are left with little choice, however almost always there are ways to broker an agreement. In this interview situation the FIRST question I would ask is if in this scenario 3585 is in play. This will either lead to a sidebar discussion about 3585 and another opportunity to show your knowledge or they will say "no", which immediately clarify to you that this is a personality question rather than a technical question. The discussion about "legal alternate" (LAX) vs. "Reality" (PDX) is a good avenue. In my world asking the captain what his ideas are is a good play keeping in mind you are JOINTLY responsible for the flight, not to mention you validating that you find the captain an equal. Given that your typical pilot is a type-A personality this will prevent a lot of resistance to selling your idea as a good one. THAT BEING SAID I would NOT answer this interview question with "whatever the captain wants" but rather "I would discuss what options I see with the captain and solicit his input".
I would never, under any circumstances, put anything on the release that mentions PDX. PDX is not a legal alternate in this scenario and if it appears on the release notes the FAA can interpret that as a declaration of an alternate, regardless of what other words you put around it to try to clarify. A dispatch release is like a legal deposition. Answer only the questions asked in as few words as possible. If the plan is to take a look see at PDX if it comes down to that then have that conversion over the phone or ACARS or radio.
REMEMBER your plan should be designed such that should you lose contact with your flight your plan can be executed to a safe conclusion. If you make a plan that requires you to modify that plan halfway through the flight, it's a bad plan.
I would never, under any circumstances, put anything on the release that mentions PDX. PDX is not a legal alternate in this scenario and if it appears on the release notes the FAA can interpret that as a declaration of an alternate, regardless of what other words you put around it to try to clarify. A dispatch release is like a legal deposition. Answer only the questions asked in as few words as possible. If the plan is to take a look see at PDX if it comes down to that then have that conversion over the phone or ACARS or radio.
REMEMBER your plan should be designed such that should you lose contact with your flight your plan can be executed to a safe conclusion. If you make a plan that requires you to modify that plan halfway through the flight, it's a bad plan.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
That's ok man, a lot of this training environment is rule based, and higher end companies want you to respect and follow the rules, but respect your coworkers too. This isn't just a dispatcher thing, pilots are terribly terribly guilty of this on their first gig. There's a way to act like a robot, and there's a way to operate in the rules BUT be a professional and not burn a guy.
For instance, there's a moron who was a dispatcher at Colgan, then somehow was brought into Pinnacle/Endeavor and he was a giant db. He never made it out and I hope he was fired by now, but he was awful to his coworkers, wrong many times, and even when he's right he's such an awful person on the phone everyone wants him to be wrong. I hope he goes back to flipping burgers. He could never figure out why he was unable to make it at the next level with years of experience. You, Ken, just worry about being a human being, admit when you're not sure, and if you get an interview question that you've never experienced say, "God sir I don't know, I wanna be nice but I'm not doing anything illegal, beg the SOC duty manager to help me manage the pilot and I'd say as professional as possible." Everyone knows the rules at this point, and if they don't they will after the first year. This stuff isn't rocket surgery.
Luigi
Well-Known Member
Just to clarify, I assumed that was the point of the question. More so I don't think anyone questioned that. My major question in this thread is the same thing you asked..."So how would you handle this conflict?"
Huhhhh
LivingTheDream
I often say to Captians: "well, let's look at this together..." -this phrase I use in real life and recently as an example in an interview.
This friendly approach helps relax the pilot and reminds us both that we are on the same team. It's no longer a conflict, because we are reviewing it together.
So, I would say, "let's look at this together. Your ETA is 2010z and the TAF from 1900 to 2200z is forecasting for xxx. Let's double check the notams. Ok now, let's look at the charts, so your alternate mins for PDX are xxx...ect"
See how this changes the situation?
My $0.02
This friendly approach helps relax the pilot and reminds us both that we are on the same team. It's no longer a conflict, because we are reviewing it together.
So, I would say, "let's look at this together. Your ETA is 2010z and the TAF from 1900 to 2200z is forecasting for xxx. Let's double check the notams. Ok now, let's look at the charts, so your alternate mins for PDX are xxx...ect"
See how this changes the situation?
My $0.02
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Huhhhh
LivingTheDream
I do NOT recommend mentioning the chief pilot in this situation.
In an interview, you are a problem solver, you are a teamplayer. You gently and calmly explain why PDX is not a legal alternate. The captain agrees. You give him any updates and weather trends.
Don't assume the pilot is arguementitive. Just answer the question in an interview. They will rephrase the question if they want more.
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Phil Schuyler
Well-Known Member
I like this approach "Let's look at this together." You defuse the situation and do a little team building at the same time.
Phil Schuyler
Well-Known Member
You didn't screw anything up. This is the difference between going to dispatch school and being a dispatcher. It's the kind of thing you can really only learn on the job. Now you have something new to think about, and to incorporate into your schema. Hang in there.
BayouMLU
Well-Known Member
LAX is the alternate on the release. If PDX is legal, I would add it as well. Should they need to divert I will give wx for both LAX and PDX. We can make up our minds then where the aircraft is headed should that time come. The aircraft has the fuel for the most distant alternate (LAX) so it's legal.
Huhhhh
LivingTheDream
EXACTLY!
Huhhhh
LivingTheDream
Embrace rejection. You won't get offered every job you apply for. It's ok, keep applying....
The hero to every story goes through a rough time. You will get discouraged, you will go through hard times. It's about the journey, not the destination.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
@Dispatch_Ken I would highlight the above and read it before any interview.