AA hiring rate and Envoy flow rant

[dasleben]

You keep wanting to talk about old flow arrangements which bear no resemblance to the new agreements being offered.

Well, help me out then. I don't fly for a regional. What's being offered now that's superior to the long list of failed flow agreements?

Except that new hires gained massive amounts of seniority quickly from the flows leaving, allowing them to finally upgrade where they never would at other regionals.

A pilot hired in late 2013 will be in the top 20% of the company by late 2015.

I alluded to this in my post above, and does have value for those hired at the appropriate time. However, since that flow agreement was shut down in 2010, the limited number of pilots eligible for flow will bring the pipeline to a crawl once those pilots are at Delta. And really, do you consider it equitable that pilots who wear the same uniform you do are guaranteed a Delta class, and you're not?

Like I said, flow programs are excellent ideas on paper, but fail in practice. In the attempt to make everything as fair as possible for everyone, these programs only end up benefitting the top percentage of pilots on a seniority list. It's happened over and over again.

And when's my UPS class date? According to this thread, I'm entitled to a class there before all you guys.

 

[jtrain609]

Equity? You want to talk about EQUITY? Is this a real estate transaction? Do we want specific performance? There's no equity in business transactions where I'm not even considered a third party.

TL;DR, life's a bitch, so take what you can and give nothing back. I don't care whether I get THE SAME benefits as flow pilots as long as I derive benefits from their actions.

 

[jynxyjoe]

. And really, do you consider it equitable that pilots who wear the same uniform you do are guaranteed a Delta class, and you're not?

What the hell does that have to do with anything. They joined compass when that was the deal. Compass is now TSA. maybe they can get a flow to TSA but that's got dick to do with anything.

You're ups post is meant as satire right? You dont actually think that's comparable in any way? If so maybe a preferential hire but maybe you should educate yourself if only for 5 minutes if that's the case.

 

[dasleben]

Well, here's how I see it: It worked for the top percentage of pilots, it shut down, and now everyone who doesn't have a Delta class is still standing behind it. C'mon guys, see it for what it is: A program that gave the top guys the "brass ring," and a B-scale for the rest.

And yes, the UPS post is made very much in jest to point out how asinine the "They already fly Delta passengers" argument is about who gets first crack at mainline.

 

[amorris311]

Well, here's how I see it: It worked for the top percentage of pilots, it shut down, and now everyone who doesn't have a Delta class is still standing behind it. C'mon guys, see it for what it is: A program that gave the top guys the "brass ring," and a B-scale for the rest.

And yes, the UPS post is made very much in jest to point out how asinine the "They already fly Delta passengers" argument is about who gets first crack at mainline.

I cannot speak for the Mesaba flow but I can for the Compass one. Everyone that was hired at Compass even after Delta acquired them got the option to flow. After Delta sold them they no longer offered the flow. So your argument about the top dogs get the brass ring is out of place in regards to the Compass flow. It is working out swimmingly for our now senior pilots but at one point every pilot had flow in seniority order.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Well, help me out then. I don't fly for a regional. What's being offered now that's superior to the long list of failed flow agreements?

Mainline management never wanted the old flows. They were conjured merely as a way to placate mainline pilots who wanted enhanced job security during their contract negotiations. So management created flow-through agreements that were really flow-back agreements. The purpose of the arrangement was to give a furloughed mainline pilot a place to go, and the possibility of the regional guy flowing up was just the method of convincing the regional guy to accept it.

Today's flows have no flow-back. They aren't three party agreements. The APA had no say in the Piedmont flow agreement. It was offered by Parker, and accepted by Piedmont. No APA involvement, no flow-back. Completely different animal. It's offered because mainline management wants something: to fill seats at their regional partner and to keep longevity costs low. They don't care where their new mainline pilots come from, so if they can take them from a specific carrier that they use for their feed (even better if it's wholly owned) so as to keep the longevity costs down without generating tons of regional pilot attrition and training events for sideways moves, that's the perfect system. It works for management, it works for the regional pilot. It's a win-win. Learn when to say yes.

I alluded to this in my post above, and does have value for those hired at the appropriate time. However, since that flow agreement was shut down in 2010, the limited number of pilots eligible for flow will bring the pipeline to a crawl once those pilots are at Delta. And really, do you consider it equitable that pilots who wear the same uniform you do are guaranteed a Delta class, and you're not?

Like I said, flow programs are excellent ideas on paper, but fail in practice. In the attempt to make everything as fair as possible for everyone, these programs only end up benefitting the top percentage of pilots on a seniority list. It's happened over and over again.

@amorris311 schooled you on this pretty well. Everyone who had an expectation of a flow got the flow. Everyone who doesn't have the flow never had an expectation of it. Nothing could be more fair. Now, should the flow still exist? Absolutely! Moak is a bastard.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Well, here's how I see it: It worked for the top percentage of pilots, it shut down, and now everyone who doesn't have a Delta class is still standing behind it. C'mon guys, see it for what it is: A program that gave the top guys the "brass ring," and a B-scale for the rest.

And yes, the UPS post is made very much in jest to point out how asinine the "They already fly Delta passengers" argument is about who gets first crack at mainline.

It was the deal when they signed on the dotted line for their employment. I know you and I never see eye to eye, and I can barely understand your POV ever, but this the furthest bridge we've been across. Also, you're completely wrong on the Compass flow (I assume that's what you're referring to) and it's because your'e completely checked out from the regional scene. I sympathize, but it's been an active flow for years now and I'm not sure how you are this far off from facts.

Also B scale? Regionals are subcontractors. Is Omni a B scale when they pick up the Fedex loads fourth quarter? Is ATI (or whatever that group is in PHL with the DC-8 that makes me drool)? You're use of hyperbole and mixed definitions blows me away.

Top dogs didn't even want the ring at my place (Mesaba), went to a ton of "mid level" guys. You wanna stay, stay. You wanna go, go.

Also, you're metaphor was even further off than you realize. You did it to sound stupid, which is fine but not for the reasons you thought. The reality is Compass went to work with the flow as a part of their crap pay scale. They didn't feel like they deserved anything, and they aren't saying they are ready for the Delta Airbus because they fly around Delta passengers, they get it because it was part of the deal with employment. End of line.

I'd keep that resume in with Delta, you'll fit right in from what I've seen. Not the NWA guys so much, but they can use more of the same attitude toward regional pilots. Thankfully United/SWA/Alaskan/American aren't so closed minded. From how your posts read to me, you're gonna love it there.

I cannot speak for the Mesaba flow but I can for the Compass one. Everyone that was hired at Compass even after Delta acquired them got the option to flow. After Delta sold them they no longer offered the flow. So your argument about the top dogs get the brass ring is out of place in regards to the Compass flow. It is working out swimmingly for our now senior pilots but at one point every pilot had flow in seniority order.

I can speak for the Mesaba one, and the Compass one. The Compass one, everyone junior and senior went @dasleben. The people hired by TSA don't get the flow. This isn't rocket surgery. Mesaba was gifted the flow by NWA guys because they liked us. Compass was started outside the NWA scope and the pilots handcuffed their futures to Compass's as a safety net from furlough. Yes, they gave us the flow literally because they liked us. Our MEC's had worked together for a long time, we stood with them at pickets, we refused to fly their struck work and didn't need a phone call to make sure we would stand next to them, we bent over for them time and again and they did the same for us.

 

[dasleben]

I cannot speak for the Mesaba flow but I can for the Compass one. Everyone that was hired at Compass even after Delta acquired them got the option to flow. After Delta sold them they no longer offered the flow. So your argument about the top dogs get the brass ring is out of place in regards to the Compass flow. It is working out swimmingly for our now senior pilots but at one point every pilot had flow in seniority order.

Of course it's working out swimmingly for those pilots, which is my point. The pilots hired after the company was sold to TSA are working under the same CBA, flying the same passengers with the same airplanes, but have one less benefit: Flow. It is, by all definitions, a B-scale for benefits. The rapid seniority movement now is great, but in order for a flow program to be equitable, and to provide all the listed benefits to both mainline and the regional, it must stand the test of time, and it must include more than just a select group. They don't, and they never have.

I see that I've been "schooled" by a couple posts while I've been writing this one up, so I'll just leave you guys to it (I don't have the energy to sit here and bicker). I just see a system that's historically only benefitted the top percentage of pilots, but everyone still defends it anyway.

And @jynxyjoe, chill out buddy. It's not personal.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Moak is a bastard.

He also represents the opinion of the Delta guys in general. The Delta pilots aren't bastards, far from it, but they do find some • guys to lead them around and tell them what they want to hear.

I think DPA should get a real shot as long as we can bring in American and SWA in the trade. Delta pilots are better than everyone, message received. The good news is they treat their customers great and their line pilots work their butts off to get you on a jumpseat. That's all I can ask of them. If they think so little of how I spent the first 5-6k of flying around fine, God bless. It provided me savings, home, food, and experience other people care about.

 

[jynxyjoe]

It is, by all definitions, a B-scale for benefits.

It is. Not.

By the way, the flow wasn't in the CBA, it was an agreement between union groups. *this is the part where captain 9gag flies away*

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

He also represents the opinion of the Delta guys in general.

Correction: the Delta south guys. As you said earlier, the north guys are a completely different group. They'd move heaven and earth to help out their regional brothers and sisters.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Of course it's working out swimmingly for those pilots, which is my point. The pilots hired after the company was sold to TSA are working under the same CBA, flying the same passengers with the same airplanes, but have one less benefit: Flow. It is, by all definitions, a B-scale for benefits. The rapid seniority movement now is great, but in order for a flow program to be equitable, and to provide all the listed benefits to both mainline and the regional, it must stand the test of time, and it must include more than just a select group. They don't, and they never have.

I see that I've been "schooled" by a couple posts while I've been writing this one up, so I'll just leave you guys to it (I don't have the energy to sit here and bicker). I just see a system that's historically only benefitted the top percentage of pilots, but everyone still defends it anyway.

And @jynxyjoe, chill out buddy. It's not personal.

Not saying it's personal. I'm not bickering, except I guess maybe we are bickering over facts?

You make conclusions based on faulty premises. Sowwy.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Correction: the Delta south guys. As you said earlier, the north guys are a completely different group. They'd move heaven and earth to help out their regional brothers and sisters.

South guys will too if it means getting you home at night... not that you'd know that Atlanta boy!

South guys are good guys. They just have a culture I want no part of.

It's shameful how much different I am treated in the same cockpit flying something that says Boeing on the side instead of Bombardier. Jesus Christ I used to fly their passengers for years and make them money. I didn't fill their pockets full of "'dat cheddar" but good lord I do NOTHING for them now.

Someday it'll be old news. It's still so weird to me and foreign. Especially when every once in a while it's a NWA guy who likes to remember the good old days of the Avro and the Saab and the Delta guy tries not to yack up his salad. It's just a weird weird culture to me. Outsider, and I know dick about dick. It was probably all comair's fault I guess, maybe it still is.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

South guys will too if it means getting you home at night... not that you'd know that Atlanta boy!

Eh, my experience was hit and miss on that. Remember, I commuted out of Atlanta for four years to Detroit. The Delta guys who were commuters or former regional guys went the extra mile. The guys who were former military and lived in PTC base housing pretty much couldn't care less about a jumpseater.

 

[dasleben]

Not saying it's personal. I'm not bickering, except I guess maybe we are bickering over facts?

You make conclusions based on faulty premises. Sowwy.

You made it personal above with some of your remarks. Don't get your blood pressure up. It's the internet. It's for discussing things. The person who's disagreeing with you isn't a bad person. Hell, I disagree with @ATN_Pilot all the time, but I'm happy to have a beer with him and shake his hand at NJC. You just throw rocks to try to get someone's goat. Please just stop.

 

[jynxyjoe]

You made it personal above with some of your remarks. Don't get your blood pressure up. It's the internet. It's for discussing things. The person who's disagreeing with you isn't a bad person. Hell, I disagree with @ATN_Pilot all the time, but I'm happy to have a beer with him and shake his hand at NJC. You just throw rocks to try to get someone's goat. Please just stop.

Eh... I can see some of why you're saying that but I felt it was important to make sure I said out loud and for the reader's benefit that I might be unreasonable because I can never get behind what you're saying. You've always said bleepy things about regionals and that never won any points with me, but that wasn't the problem here. You are arguing a good conclusion if your facts were correct, they weren't.

Don't confuse "getting your goat" with a reroute. You're facts are wrong, and you reiterate the same conclusion while ignoring the facts presented. It's not my blood pressure, I'm just trying to make sure you're emotions conclusions don't convince someone trying to make an informed decision based on facts.

PS: just assume if you're not getting excited about the topic I'm not either. It seems like you've said this before. If I type a lot it's because I try to make complete sentences and put sentences in an order than help people understand. If you don't like long posts I'm sorry. However, long posts don't mean I'm mad or my blood pressure is up.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Today's flows have no flow-back.

On the contrary, even after Compass's last flow up occurs, the potential Delta furloughee can still flow back to Compass. Up to 90% of Compass positions are for Delta furloughees.

 

[dasleben]

Eh... I can see some of why you're saying that but I felt it was important to make sure I said out loud and for the reader's benefit that I might be unreasonable because I can never get behind what you're saying. You've always said bleepy things about regionals and that never won any points with me, but that wasn't the problem here. You are arguing a good conclusion if your facts were correct, they weren't.

Don't confuse "getting your goat" with a reroute. You're facts are wrong, and you reiterate the same conclusion while ignoring the facts presented. It's not my blood pressure, I'm just trying to make sure you're emotions conclusions don't convince someone trying to make an informed decision based on facts.

Nah, what I'm advocating in this thread is a fair system for all regional pilots where one doesn't presently exist. I don't look down on regional pilots at all, and I wasn't aware that I ever gave that impression; as you guys know, I've spent a good part of my career as one.

My opinion is that flow should apply to all, or none. I don't feel it's fair that @Screaming_Emu is stuck in the right seat at his regional, while guys at another regional flying under the same Delta banner have guaranteed slots at mainline. Yes, we all know that's just how the system works, and life isn't fair, but I feel the system as it stands is broken. We can discuss Compass all night (I just got up at 5pm #nightfreight), but it doesn't address the systemic problem that advancement from regional to mainline is largely based on luck, timing, and which seniority list you happened to get on first. For example, if you look at Delta Connection carriers, only a small percentage of pilots are eligible for flow system-wide. I think all should, or none should.

If I had my way in a perfect world? National seniority list, but sadly I don't see that ever happening.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Nah, what I'm advocating in this thread is a fair system for all regional pilots where one doesn't presently exist. I don't look down on regional pilots at all, and I wasn't aware that I ever gave that impression; as you guys know, I've spent a good part of my career as one.

My opinion is that flow should apply to all, or none. I don't feel it's fair that @Screaming_Emu is stuck in the right seat at his regional, while guys at another regional flying under the same Delta banner have guaranteed slots at mainline. Yes, we all know that's just how the system works, and life isn't fair, but I feel the system as it stands is broken. We can discuss Compass all night (I just got up at 5pm #nightfreight), but it doesn't address the systemic problem that advancement from regional to mainline is largely based on luck, timing, and which seniority list you happened to get on first. For example, if you look at Delta Connection carriers, only a small percentage of pilots are eligible for flow system-wide. I think all should, or none should.

If I had my way in a perfect world? National seniority list, but sadly I don't see that ever happening.

This.

Flows shouldn't be the goal. National seniority and/or all flying done with your name on the side of the airplane is done by pilots on that seniority list. Go big or go home.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Go big or go home.

The rallying cry of people who never accomplish anything. Real progress is made incrementally.