Envoy MIA base to close

embraer07 said:
Who peed in your Cheerios? I'm offering up a point of view, just as you are. No need to don the Internet tough guy cape so easily.

You think you know exactly what will happen at Envoy in the future. That's great. With powers like that you are in the wrong industry.
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With picking companies and future careers at stake maybe I'm in the right industry? (crossing my fingers it works out, and my company can keep and grow its market share)

How long have you been there? What is your reasoning for hanging around?

Fact: No more 135/140s and CR700s. That leaves around 120 planes. 10:1 staffing is 1200 guys.

The pilot group is being made an example of by AAG. That is an important point. AAG is going to beat you guys down so hard, the other WOs don't dare rock the boat.

AAG just gave almost 20% raises to their F/As, yet balk at commuter pilot costs and want concessions. The entire game is rigged, if you're not moving up you're going backward.
 
jtrain609 said:
I'm not entirely sure that this is a completely subjective discussion. I quantified my losses by calculating how many dollars I'd lose if I made a lateral and didn't upgrade.
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I completely agree and encourage everyone who is considering a lateral move to do exactly has you have. Quantifying the elements you know and have control of is the most accurate way to weigh your options. I think far too few people do that.

Knowing your quantifiable losses is the easy part. Weighing the rapidly changing and unpredictable variables is the tough part. To clarify my earlier post, tolerance for risk and individual situations are subjective. I'm only piping up to encourage anyone looking at a lateral move to define their tolerance for risk and compare it to that which they can actually quantify.
 
wheelsup said:
With picking companies and future careers at stake maybe I'm in the right industry? (crossing my fingers it works out, and my company can keep and grow its market share)

How long have you been there? What is your reasoning for hanging around?

Fact: No more 135/140s and CR700s. That leaves around 120 planes. 10:1 staffing is 1200 guys.

The pilot group is being made an example of by AAG. That is an important point. AAG is going to beat you guys down so hard, the other WOs don't dare rock the boat.

AAG just gave almost 20% raises to their F/As, yet balk at commuter pilot costs and want concessions. The entire game is rigged, if you're not moving up you're going backward.
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^ this

Eagle tried to call Dougie out on his bluff and lost. He wants to make an example out of them to show other regionals he means business and don't get expensive and or cocky.

When I went from cjc to pinnacle I had an app in with compass (ok I really just wanted to sling @amorris311 gear) before I got hired at airways. I was one of the most junior captains and knew I was getting downgraded eventually.

It's a crappy game.
 
Tld said:
I completely agree and encourage everyone who is considering a lateral move to do exactly has you have. Quantifying the elements you know and have control of is the most accurate way to weigh your options. I think far too few people do that.

Knowing your quantifiable losses is the easy part. Weighing the rapidly changing and unpredictable variables is the tough part. To clarify my earlier post, tolerance for risk and individual situations are subjective. I'm only piping up to encourage anyone looking at a lateral move to define their tolerance for risk and compare it to that which they can actually quantify.
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That's fair, and let me say that I'm incredibly risk adverse in this career; that's why it took me 7 years to finally pull the trigger on bailing on my last company. I hope, and hoped, and hoped that things would get better, and it got me nothing but lost seniority at the next carrier.

It should have been crystal clear to me that when XJT didn't have a viable business plan to move the company forward within a year of coming back from furlough that they were never going to.

Hoping for things to change for the better is not a strategy, it's a coping mechanism.
 
I ignored the guys at JetBlue for over a year and a half before I took their advice and applied. It's hard to step outside your comfort zone and leave a job you know so well. But sometimes you just gotta see things for what they are and cut your losses.
 
jtrain609 said:
That's fair, and let me say that I'm incredibly risk adverse in this career; that's why it took me 7 years to finally pull the trigger on bailing on my last company. I hope, and hoped, and hoped that things would get better, and it got me nothing but lost seniority at the next carrier.

It should have been crystal clear to me that when XJT didn't have a viable business plan to move the company forward within a year of coming back from furlough that they were never going to.

Hoping for things to change for the better is not a strategy, it's a coping mechanism.
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I did the same thing, I spent over 7 years at the same carrier hoping for good news. It took me going to a MEC meeting in IAH to hear the plan from the leadership and it was obvious that my future was nothing but stagnation and commuting to ORD. I should have left a year ago and I would be in the current upgrade class if I did but better late than never I guess. I no longer commute and I have more seniority in 3 months at PSA than I did after 4 years at XJT. If you are a FO at a stagnant company my advice would be to get out now, there are some once in a lifetime career opportunities out there.
 
So here is how I see things. Take it for what it's worth:

As most of you know I was at a commuter (before "regional"was a thing) for 8 years. When I got hired, it was 3-4 years to upgrade to J31 CA. At the time, guys like @ZapBrannigan were bailing ASAP for places like AirTran (the original), Vanguard, Access and Midwest Express. And that was the state of the game. For some it worked great, for others (@ZapBrannigan ) they got caught in the "back to zero" cycle for no other reason than timing.

I started at the end of that wave, and a bunch of us kept getting more money, more type ratings and more days off. To the point, for some of us, the very recent black & white line of any job is better (30k/yr for a captain after a 3 year upgrade) became a very fungible idea.

Then there was even more stagnation. Sure there were a couple hiring bursts in 99-00 and 07, but after watching decades of mainline decay it was difficult. The guys like @Derg were very few and far between, but there were enough to give hope.

Now, with the mass stagnation that is the regionals, and the START of the consolidation process as the industry moves to it's next phase, you are facing existing juggernauts will get flogged. If you refuse to think that management will not repeat their processes you are absolutely insane. Eagle is in the cross hairs for the exact reason ExpressJet was before they got cut loose and Comair was, and the whole boondoggle of the US Airways Express network.

What I see in terms of hiring today is unprecedented. Guys like @Trip7 getting hired at a mainline were unheard of.

Right now, if you've sat for the last year and upgrade got further away percentage wise, and you're not trying to get a job flying bigger equipment (mainline first, come fly with me if that doesn't work out) you are negligent in any strategic planning to feed yourself.

Get a move on.
 
Polar742 said:
So here is how I see things. Take it for what it's worth:

As most of you know I was at a commuter (before "regional"was a thing) for 8 years. When I got hired, it was 3-4 years to upgrade to J31 CA. At the time, guys like @ZapBrannigan were bailing ASAP for places like AirTran (the original), Vanguard, Access and Midwest Express. And that was the state of the game. For some it worked great, for others (@ZapBrannigan ) they got caught in the "back to zero" cycle for no other reason than timing.

I started at the end of that wave, and a bunch of us kept getting more money, more type ratings and more days off. To the point, for some of us, the very recent black & white line of any job is better (30k/yr for a captain after a 3 year upgrade) became a very fungible idea.

Then there was even more stagnation. Sure there were a couple hiring bursts in 99-00 and 07, but after watching decades of mainline decay it was difficult. The guys like @Derg were very few and far between, but there were enough to give hope.

Now, with the mass stagnation that is the regionals, and the START of the consolidation process as the industry moves to it's next phase, you are facing existing juggernauts will get flogged. If you refuse to think that management will not repeat their processes you are absolutely insane. Eagle is in the cross hairs for the exact reason ExpressJet was before they got cut loose and Comair was, and the whole boondoggle of the US Airways Express network.

What I see in terms of hiring today is unprecedented. Guys like @Trip7 getting hired at a mainline were unheard of.

Right now, if you've sat for the last year and upgrade got further away percentage wise, and you're not trying to get a job flying bigger equipment (mainline first, come fly with me if that doesn't work out) you are negligent in any strategic planning to feed yourself.

Get a move on.
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Great insight...thanks!
 
Sorry to hear the bad news. I wish you the best and hope the AA flow and attrition is equal to the rate of contraction so nobody gets kicked to the curb.
 
Basically, just be smart and use common sense. If your shop is parking airplanes, morale is in the toilet and things are moving backwards, take a good, hard look at where it's going in the next five years. I started at 9E in 2006, upgraded in two years and I left about 4 years later. If I had stayed rather than going, I'd LIKELY be back in the right seat. If I was LUCKY enough guys ahead of me would either quit or get hired into the SSP at Delta to the point I could re-upgrade. If I was REALLY lucky, I might even be one of the SSP guys that got hired. I would be one of the lucky FOs who had been a CA before being sent back to the right seat. There are still a LOT of FOs at 9E that haven't even had the chance to upgrade yet. Some were hired just a few months after I was. So, you're looking at 8 year FOs that haven't even seen the left seat yet. They CAN'T take advantage of the SSP. They keep seeing more guys senior to them pop up on the FO side of the list, and reserve life is getting closer and closer every month for them. Could it all turn around tomorrw? Based on Delta's fleet plan, not likely. At best, you're looking at a slow bleed out rather than a gushing GSW. Assuming the final fleet plan of 81 airframes holds up, for a ballpark, multiply that times 5 for the number of CAs per plane they've historically staffed. Count 405 guys down the list, and there's your bottom of reserve plug CA. For a loooooong time. If all the guys ahead of him have done their SSPs (and they likely already HAVE at this point in time) and have no other options, well, FOs just stagnated completely. Sure, Delta could throw 9E a bone by giving them more airframes, but I'm not sure I'd bet my career and my family on that. In that situation, I'd say a lateral move is probably justified.

Now, if your airline shows movement, your seniority is going in the right direction and there's a dim light on the horizon (no regional has a bright one), then sticking is probably best. Chasing upgrade is one of those things that'll bite you in the ass in the end. If your seniority and career options have pretty much been stagnate or going backwards for a year or two, well, might be time to at least CONSIDER the lateral move. If pay, QoL and everything else you need to weigh say it makes sense, don't let random guys on the internet sway your life one way or the other.

The other thing you need to consider is your exit strategy. Flying planes is fun and all, but at the end of the day, it's a job. You have to have a point where the abuse hits a level where you punch out of aviation and go back to the real world. I had my line in the sand for that at Pinnacle, and I was getting close to it when jetBlue called (finally). Basically, between commuting, time away from home and a potential pay cut, it was getting close. If I had been displaced, that would have triggered it. The pay cut CAs took in the bankruptcy would have put me close. Forcing me to commute to DTW would have had me pull the trigger, too. A lot of guys hold on with both hands because this is the first and only job they've had after college. It's all they know. But fact is, I could ALMOST replace what I would have made as a topped out FO at Pinnacle by pushing buttons at Space Mountain again. Oh, and I'd have been home every night. I talked to a lot of FOs around that time that had no exit plan other than "I'm going to stick with this until the end" when being a night manager at Burger King would have paid the bills better.
 
Excellent post @kellwolf. Not all regionals are upgrading in 12 months, and those that are now likely won't be by the time somebody gets on there.

I really feel for you guys that are getting screwed at ExpressJet and Eagle. Quite frankly it scares me, as I know that could very easily be my future as well. But there's just no way I could start over at another regional... I'd probably push hard for corporate, or a decent 135 gig. Most likely, I think I'd be pushing the ex-pat airline gig the most. If I have to start over, I sure as heck better be making more money.
 
GypsyPilot said:
Understood. But going to another regional shouldn't be considered the only option, particularly if one has already wasted three years somewhere else.
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No one said a lateral was the only option. And wasted? You haven't wasted jack crap. 3 years is nothing. It's a drop in the bucket. When did 3 years at a regional (commuter) become wasted? Jesus I was born in the wrong generation.
 
B767 said:
No one said a lateral was the only option. And wasted? You haven't wasted jack crap. 3 years is nothing. It's a drop in the bucket. When did 3 years at a regional (commuter) become wasted? Jesus I was born in the wrong generation.
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If I may ask, where did you make a lateral to/from?
 
B767 said:
No one said a lateral was the only option. And wasted? You haven't wasted jack crap. 3 years is nothing. It's a drop in the bucket. When did 3 years at a regional (commuter) become wasted? Jesus I was born in the wrong generation.
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I think you are referring to not wasting experience, but for those who got hired at a regional with an expectation at being there for 3-4 years then getting on with a major it's wasted time to them as its 3 years of hypothetical seniority loss.
 
The only thing consistent in this industry is change. I got hired at Pinnacle with an "expectation" that I'd be an FO for 2 years, a CA for about 1000 hours, then I'd go to SWA with my connections over there. Then there was Age 65. Then the economy slow down. Then airlines started merging. So, my 3 year plan turned into nearly 7. I don't consider those 4 years "wasted," because if you wanna thrive in this industry, you have GOT to be flexible. I didn't even wind up at my original target because they've changed so much since I worked there in 2004. The only way I'd go there right now is if they bought jetBlue and forced me to. Yes, even though they have an MCO base, that's what it would take.

If you can't alter your plans (I think I was on plan V or W, forget Plan B, when I finally "made it."), you're in the wrong industry.
 
kellwolf said:
The only thing consistent in this industry is change. I got hired at Pinnacle with an "expectation" that I'd be an FO for 2 years, a CA for about 1000 hours, then I'd go to SWA with my connections over there. Then there was Age 65. Then the economy slow down. Then airlines started merging. So, my 3 year plan turned into nearly 7. I don't consider those 4 years "wasted," because if you wanna thrive in this industry, you have GOT to be flexible. I didn't even wind up at my original target because they've changed so much since I worked there in 2004. The only way I'd go there right now is if they bought jetBlue and forced me to. Yes, even though they have an MCO base, that's what it would take.

If you can't alter your plans (I think I was on plan V or W, forget Plan B, when I finally "made it."), you're in the wrong industry.
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I wouldn't consider my time at a regional wasted either, as long as I was making some kind of forward progress with it. Starting over at the bottom of a list at another regional, making first year pay again, while doing the same damn job at the former carrier would be considered a waste of time to me.

Now, if I took that valuable three (or however many years) of experience and moved forward with it, that's fine. By moving forward, I mean a national/LCC, good corporate gig, overseas, etc. But leaving a place like Eagle for Mesa/PSA/Compass and hoping for a quick upgrade? I just couldn't do it, and quite frankly it would be a waste of my experience, hard work, education, and ability. I know not everybody feels that way, I get it. But that's me, and likely due to my ability to make a good living doing things other than flying airplanes.
 
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