Envoy MIA base to close

ClarkGriswold said:
Lateral moves can very much pay off. WHY on earth would you sit, stagnant and DELAY your career.
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I respect your opinion, but the potential benefits of a lateral move don't outweigh the very real risks. It's all about timing, and the nasty thing about timing is that you never know if you are getting in at the front or back of the line. For a seniority based industry such as ours that can be career suicide. Just ask the hundreds of pilots who are on their third or fourth airline after chasing the upgrade at one Regional and then the next.

A better utilization of one's time and resources would be getting hired at an LCC or Legacy...not starting over at another Regional. If a person is still within their first year then they don't have anything to lose and the risk of a lateral move may be worth taking. But for anybody with any amount of seniority, QOL, pay, etc... starting over at the bottom of another Regional's seniority list and starting over at $24k/year is not something that I would ever counsel someone of doing. Ever.

Like I mentioned in my other post, the Regional wheel spins quickly and in the blink of an eye your Regional du jour is now the one to stay away from. The flip side of that is your Regional suddenly becoming the hottest ticket in town when just last year people were fleeing from it.
 
embraer07 said:
I respect your opinion, but the potential benefits of a lateral move don't outweigh the very real risks. It's all about timing, and the nasty thing about timing is that you never know if you are getting in at the front or back of the line. For a seniority based industry such as ours that can be career suicide. Just ask the hundreds of pilots who are on their third or fourth airline after chasing the upgrade at one Regional and then the next.

A better utilization of one's time and resources would be getting hired at an LCC or Legacy...not starting over at another Regional. If a person is still within their first year then they don't have anything to lose and the risk of a lateral move may be worth taking. But for anybody with any amount of seniority, QOL, pay, etc... starting over at the bottom of another Regional's seniority list and starting over at $24k/year is not something that I would ever counsel someone of doing. Ever.

Like I mentioned in my other post, the Regional wheel spins quickly and in the blink of an eye your Regional du jour is now the one to stay away from. The flip side of that is your Regional suddenly becoming the hottest ticket in town when just last year people were fleeing from it.
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There are several folks on this site that would object to your theory. In fact, I believe more folks on here have made successful lateral moves than those that haven't.
 
Depends on the lateral movie. I know guys that were at Pinnacle and ExpressJet that jumped over to Compass. They're looking at upgrading soon where if they had stayed, they'd be looking at being displaced while watching their upgrade time get longer and longer. The way it is right now, for every guy that says "I shoulda stayed," there's a guy saying "Why did I stick around?"

I know several guys who left Pinnacle for Silver. Most are with majors or LCCs now. If they had stayed, they'd be miss level FOS at best with no SSP interview since they would have never upgraded.

Just saying "don't move laterally" as a blanket statement is short sighted. It's a much more complicated situation.
 
Some lateral moves are calculated risks. If you are at ABC regional that is losing X airplanes and you make the jump to regional B. That plan blows up in your face. Wasn't it possibly worth the risk? Either way you'd be in the SAME position or in a terrific position at the new regional. There are a couple places right now where the lateral move actually makes sense. I'll report back in a year about my lateral move.
 
embraer07 said:
I respect your opinion, but the potential benefits of a lateral move don't outweigh the very real risks. It's all about timing, and the nasty thing about timing is that you never know if you are getting in at the front or back of the line. For a seniority based industry such as ours that can be career suicide. Just ask the hundreds of pilots who are on their third or fourth airline after chasing the upgrade at one Regional and then the next.

A better utilization of one's time and resources would be getting hired at an LCC or Legacy...not starting over at another Regional. If a person is still within their first year then they don't have anything to lose and the risk of a lateral move may be worth taking. But for anybody with any amount of seniority, QOL, pay, etc... starting over at the bottom of another Regional's seniority list and starting over at $24k/year is not something that I would ever counsel someone of doing. Ever.

Like I mentioned in my other post, the Regional wheel spins quickly and in the blink of an eye your Regional du jour is now the one to stay away from. The flip side of that is your Regional suddenly becoming the hottest ticket in town when just last year people were fleeing from it.
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The people who miss the boat are the ones who sit and wait to see if the timing is right, by then the boat is missed. How can one focus on getting on at a major when they are a stagnant FO? What do you honestly believe you can do that can make you stand out compared to the quick upgraders? Networking helps but you can carry your past experience to your next gig and network just the same then you can, wait for it, upgrade in a timely matter. I know someone who just recently upgraded who would be a reserve FO at 9E if he chose to wait it out.
 
ClarkGriswold said:
The people who miss the boat are the ones who sit and wait to see if the timing is right, by then the boat is missed. How can one focus on getting on at a major when they are a stagnant FO? What do you honestly believe you can do that can make you stand out compared to the quick upgraders? Networking helps but you can carry your past experience to your next gig and network just the same then you can, wait for it, upgrade in a timely matter. I know someone who just recently upgraded who would be a reserve FO at 9E if he chose to wait it out.
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I know several people at the regional I'm leaving from who are "waiting to see" and they have no idea what they will be missing out on.
 
ClarkGriswold said:
The people who miss the boat are the ones who sit and wait to see if the timing is right, by then the boat is missed. How can one focus on getting on at a major when they are a stagnant FO? What do you honestly believe you can do that can make you stand out compared to the quick upgraders? Networking helps but you can carry your past experience to your next gig and network just the same then you can, wait for it, upgrade in a timely matter. I know someone who just recently upgraded who would be a reserve FO at 9E if he chose to wait it out.
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I understand. Like I said, it's a risk. Just as we can't blanket statement that making a lateral move is bad, we can't say it's good either. The risk is too great to push somebody to do it. If you or I personally make that decision, that is one thing. But I don't think someone should just tell everybody at Regional A to jump ship to Regional B just because it sort of, kind of seems like a good idea today.
 
It's amazing to see the level of cockiness in this thread from some guys that were goofy kids just a couple years ago, saying some REALLY stupid things on here at times. Now of course, they're experts in the field.

Nobody knows what every guy and girl is dealing with in this business. I probably won't upgrade at my current place for another couple years, making it a 5-7 year upgrade. And I've been in this business for over 10 years. Kinda sucks, but then again I live in base, and I will absolutely not be starting over at another regional. I'm just not desperate enough for that, particularly since I'm in my mid-30s and have a great backup career if I need it. Will that hold me back? Maybe... But as I get older, some other things have become more important.
 
Kingairer said:
Piedmont may be the flavor of the month now that they will be getting new E-Jets and Flowthru to mainline.
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You think they will actually see the E-Jets over at Piedmont?

I'm thinking those were a huge carrot and are going to be used more for whipsaw amongst the regional carriers than anything else.
 
GypsyPilot said:
Stuff
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These guys are not debating a lateral move from the company we work for. They are, however, debating a lateral move from a company I USED to work for up until a year ago. I was in my 3rd year when I made the lateral. At the time I had a wife who was a stay at home mom with 1 kid, and pregnant with our second. While on first year at new regional she gave birth to number 2 and we got pregnant with #3 (not looking for any grats or rah-rahs or tooting my horn - that was just my situation when I pulled the trigger). I do not, cannot, and will never regret making a lateral from the company they are discussing, to the company we now work at.

I was on reserve there for all 3 years. Life was ok until reserve time balancing went into effect. I started paying a lot more in hotel fees. I sat reserve at the new gig a whopping two months. As @Trip7 has said, @ClarkGriswold, @amorris311, @jtrain609, and @Autothrust Blue have shown (and I'm sure there's a jeep of others I'm unaware of) most pilots on this site that have made a lateral have done better, much better, than their previous carrier.

I understand everyone's situation is different and what not, but if you keep an eye on it and pull the trigger soon enough the move usually works out. As opposed to "waiting it out" until you can no longer take the beatings, and by then it's too late.
 
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B767 said:
These guys are also not debating a lateral move from the company we work for. They are, however, debating a lateral move from a company I USED to work for up until a year ago. I was in my 3rd year when I made the lateral. At the time I had a wife who was a stay at home mom with 1 kid, and pregnant with our second. While on first year at new regional she gave birth to number 2 and we got pregnant with #3 (not looking for any grats or rah-rahs or tooting my horn - that was just my situation when I pulled the trigger). I do not, cannot, and will never regret making a lateral from the company they are discussing, to the company we now work at.

I was on reserve there for all 3 years. Life was ok until reserve time balancing went into effect. I started paying a lot more in hotel fees. I sat reserve at the new gig a whopping two months. As @Trip7 has said, @ClarkGriswold, @amorris311, @jtrain609, and @Autothrust Blue have shown (and I'm sure there's a jeep of others I'm unaware of) most pilots on this site that have made a lateral have done better, much better, than their previous carrier.

I understand everyone's situation is different and what not, but if you keep an eye on it and pull the trigger soon enough the move usually works out. As opposed to "waiting it out" until you can no longer take the beatings, and by then it's too late.
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This is what worries me, that I may have waited too long
 
Lateral moves as I see it: Quantifiable loss vs. Opportunity cost. Opportunity cost in the airline industry is rarely quantifiable until after the fact, it's all a game of risk. It would be an easy decision if you could see into the future. And opportunity cost is subjective. We are not all in the same boat. Find a way to quantify your risk, compare it to the variables that you can actually quantify, and you will find your answer....but unless you have a crystal ball, you will only know if made the right moves at the end of the game.
 
I gave up 5 years seniority when I made a lateral move. It isn't the best decision for everyone, but it was for me. I'd be two leg commuting to be a junior reserve FO at my old place. I'm a couple bids away from upgrading at my new place. The initial pay cut was tough but I survived.
 
GypsyPilot said:
It's amazing to see the level of cockiness in this thread from some guys that were goofy kids just a couple years ago, saying some REALLY stupid things on here at times. Now of course, they're experts in the field.

Nobody knows what every guy and girl is dealing with in this business. I probably won't upgrade at my current place for another couple years, making it a 5-7 year upgrade. And I've been in this business for over 10 years. Kinda sucks, but then again I live in base, and I will absolutely not be starting over at another regional. I'm just not desperate enough for that, particularly since I'm in my mid-30s and have a great backup career if I need it. Will that hold me back? Maybe... But as I get older, some other things have become more important.
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I sense a chip on your shoulder. You make fun of the goofy kids but then bring up your experience like you are owed something. All we are saying is lateral moves can work out and there's examples to prove that. It's not the goofy kid's fault they made a good move. Remember upgrades are based on seniority not flying smoothness, if you pay attention in the industry like most of us here do you have a much better shot of taking advantage of opportunities (not saying you don't pay attention, I mean people in general).
 
Tld said:
Lateral moves as I see it: Quantifiable loss vs. Opportunity cost. Opportunity cost in the airline industry is rarely quantifiable until after the fact, it's all a game of risk. It would be an easy decision if you could see into the future. And opportunity cost is subjective. We are not all in the same boat. Find a way to quantify your risk, compare it to the variables that you can actually quantify, and you will find your answer....but unless you have a crystal ball, you will only know if made the right moves at the end of the game.
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I'm not entirely sure that this is a completely subjective discussion. I quantified my losses by calculating how many dollars I'd lose if I made a lateral and didn't upgrade.

The result was a net loss of $20,000 over a 5 year period, and almost all of that came in the first year. Come February, I'm right back to where I left my last job if I'm still in the right seat.

Additionally, the schedule for parking aircraft at my last company was published in the 10K, and was thus objective. I knew my number would stagnate, and in fact it has.

I think we tell ourselves things like, "you'll never know if you made a good decision until after the fact" in the industry to insulate ourselves from bad decisions at the regional level, and I don't think this analysis comes into play until you're talking about retiring from a mainline carrier.
 
FlyinSol0 said:
I worry that envoy is actually getting more expensive, relatively speaking, since we have a group of senior pilots who won't be leaving. When we shrink, we aren't losing the super senior as much as the junior guys, making us even more top heavy. Is eagle ever going to be competitive with 400 or so lifers?

3 bases closures, another looming, all 135s gone, 140s are on there way out, along with the crjs. No replacements yet, and people are jumping ship left and right.

We have about 2500 pilots, I am around 2300 seniority. It's amazing to look at a seniority list from Jan 2012. We had 3200 pilots, and I was about 3100.
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It's going to be a 1200 strong pilot group in the end. @embraer07 has his head in the sand.

Call it roughly 600 CAs and FOs. With 300-400 lifer CA's on property not going anywhere there will be limited chance of upgrading ANYONE over the next few years. Same goes for Endeavour. They are looking at 81 -900's once it's all said and done.

TPIC isn't everything but it still opens a lot more doors, financially and career wise, then SIC only. You can network just the same as a CA or FO.
 
embraer07 said:
I understand. Like I said, it's a risk. Just as we can't blanket statement that making a lateral move is bad, we can't say it's good either. The risk is too great to push somebody to do it. If you or I personally make that decision, that is one thing. But I don't think someone should just tell everybody at Regional A to jump ship to Regional B just because it sort of, kind of seems like a good idea today.
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The only person making blanket statements was you. This thread is about "the newEagle" and bailing from them.
 
wheelsup said:
The only person making blanket statements was you. This thread is about "the newEagle" and bailing from them.
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Who peed in your Cheerios? I'm offering up a point of view, just as you are. No need to don the Internet tough guy cape so easily.

You think you know exactly what will happen at Envoy in the future. That's great. With powers like that you are in the wrong industry.

And for the record: this thread is about the MIA base closure..not "bailing from Eagle" as you say.
 
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