SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
For pilots? Yeah, probably true.
AAG to Transfer Envoy CRJ-700s to PSA
- Thread starter J Cole
- Start date
For pilots? Yeah, probably true.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
In fairness, it's a lot to take in sometimes. It's difficult to understand that that 3x a day service doesn't mean much to mainline anymore when they can just run one 88 in and have the same or larger margin. 5 or 6 years ago a lot of us thought mainline would never take back scope so regionals would be around forever. It never occured to us that the outsourcing business model doesn't ALWAYS make more sense financially. It makes sense when a negotating guy can just take out of piece of paper and write down numbers and show you why. Hard to just run the numbers in your head. I suppose that's why those sales execs went to school for math and all that hard math crap. Cheaters, they went to college for more than a trade. I can't compete with that!
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
The Republic pilot contract already had their payscale set up that way. It was not like it was different and then they voted to cap themselves at 12/4 yr pay like Endeavor did. Also, Eagle isn't shutting down - not yet anyway. And about the Chapter 7 comment, what liquidation? All they did is threaten you in the same manner Envoy got threatened. There was no Chapter 7. Technically wasn't Endeavor already de-listed at that point? It was a wholly-owned Delta entity. You don't need an economics degree. If you listened to their shutdown threat and voted yes, then you should have listened when they communicated on numerous occasions that a shutdown would take a year. Their words, not mine. But common sense dictates you cannot (not even Delta) take out 200+ regional jets in less than 12 months without ramping up some sort of replacement. The 717s weren't ready to come online until recently. No way could those planes have been removed in anything shorter than their-own admission of 12 months. Comair took a decade to dismantle and destroy. Endeavor would have lasted more than 12 months if the group had voted no. Only a naiive person would think a 200-airplane Endeavor would be gone in less than 12 months when that threat came out.
I see ATN Pilot has changed his tone. Before when he and I were arguing VX payrates when they came out in 2008, I compared it to rates being paid at that time at US Airways, Delta, Northwest, and of course his response was those were bankruptcy imposed rates and don't count towards pattern bargaining and therefore a NMB member doesn't look at those for comparison. Hence, according to him my comparison wasn't legit. Doh! Did he say that 2008-2010 was the worst recession and a money-losing VX and their pilots had no leverage for better pay? Of course not. Because it's non-union... apparently these VX pilots can't take what they get and live to fight another day as he so eloquently says.
Nothing to see here. Just an extreme pro-union leader out of touch with constituents who uses "facts" only when it fits him and his viewpoints.
amorris311
Well-Known Member
You do understand that if the Pinnacle pilots voted no they would have had a court appointed contract imposed on them?
Also in response to your second paragraph, you are trying to compare two different segments of the industry. Yes we all fly planes and are held to virtually the same standards but FFD is not the same as a stand alone or legacy carrier. You would gain a lot more traction if you stayed in the same field when you argue your points. Taking a tidbit of information and running with it years after the fact doesn't set a good tone.
My observations only and I'm sure you disagree.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Of course he does, but it doesn't help his point.
His dissembling usually does it for me. Pancakes his credence.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Goodness...
Howsabout'we just find hobbies outside of trying to run the whole industry? Anyone need a cigar and some bourbon?
Howsabout'we just find hobbies outside of trying to run the whole industry? Anyone need a cigar and some bourbon?
BE19Pilot
Flying a Box
Since when was unity a basic tenet of an association pretending to be a "union". Read the by-laws and Flying the Line Vol. 1-3 SOBER this time and report back with a synopsis of why "holding the line" in the regional airline sector is absurd. And, YES what happened at COMAIR, TSA, COLGAN, MESABA, PINNACLE and now EAGLE is very sad. But, everyone wants the "legacy" job right, but some of you naive fools ( including myself bought into a lot of flowery BS from a former MEC/NC ) about how a "career" was possible at a regional. Not their fault, they were naive, foolish, impressionable YET forgivable because I still believe they thought they were doing the right thing. Well, sometimes thinking you are doing the right thing can be the mother of disaster. Hence, the Pinnacle concessionary contract...
Listen up, if you want a legacy job ( and you should ) FORGET this ridiculous, foolish act of nobility you think you're making by voting, "NO" on these LOAs and TAs. Are they all a sandwich? ABSOLUTELY! Do we like seeing fellow pilots that belong to the same ASSOCIATION get the short-end of the stick? NO! But, where is the money? It is NOT at the regionals, wholly-owned or otherwise...FOLLOW the money, because you will never see industry OR your fellow ALPA pilots allow one more penny than us absolutely necessary to trickle down to us...
Welcome back to 1978...Change sucks, and so does re-inventing the wheel...AGAIN...Read, learn and understand the history of your profession and industry...
Listen up, if you want a legacy job ( and you should ) FORGET this ridiculous, foolish act of nobility you think you're making by voting, "NO" on these LOAs and TAs. Are they all a sandwich? ABSOLUTELY! Do we like seeing fellow pilots that belong to the same ASSOCIATION get the short-end of the stick? NO! But, where is the money? It is NOT at the regionals, wholly-owned or otherwise...FOLLOW the money, because you will never see industry OR your fellow ALPA pilots allow one more penny than us absolutely necessary to trickle down to us...
Welcome back to 1978...Change sucks, and so does re-inventing the wheel...AGAIN...Read, learn and understand the history of your profession and industry...
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Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
I mostly agree, but here is the bigger picture...at least in my opinion.
So we all have been saying for years "90 seater should be at mainline" and what not. This is our chance to make that happen.
I agree that we don't have a ton of leverage, but it will never be better than what it is now. The FFD segment is no longer viable because the costs are becoming high enough that it doesn't make sense for majors to farm this flying out to us slackers. If we all give in and take pay cuts (payroll costs are one of the few costs that the major carriers aren't paying for directly) then the argument for outsourcing makes more sense and we all get stuck in this screwed up system even longer.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
The crew costs are in line if not less than mainline when compared on a seat basis. Example A320 CA $200/hr $1.33/seat E175 CA $100/hr $1.31/seat. F/Os are even cheaper at the commuters. Overall, you're not talking about additional crew costs here. Combine everything - lower crew costs, lower ground handling costs, lower admin costs, lower operation related costs (hotel quality etc) plus the ability to whipsaw, and presto you've got a decent chunk of change.
Not to mention 1/2 to 1/3 of the 401k match, easier deployment (ie handing over flying to let the other company figure out how to staff it), no liability for aircraft, no longevity liability, etc.
Don't for a second think mainlines want to bring the flying back. They will outsource as much as they can get away with. It's just that the 50 seaters aren't hanging around in mass like they were 10 years ago. All the new RFPs have been for E-170 series or CRJ700/900 series.
Some 50's will remain but there is going to be a big flush.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
You're ignoring the fact that management can get their cost savings purely through shifting the flying to where longevity is lower. Compass doesn't have to take any concessions and their costs are already well below yours, despite their decent contract, because their longevity is lower. So if you don't play ball, they'll just transfer the flying to them (or GoJet, or PSA, or Mesa, etc.) and you'll be out of a job. The flying isn't going back to mainline completely. Some of it is, yes, but you're still fighting over the profitable 70-90 seat flying that is out there. You can either be one of the carriers that gets it, or you can disappear and hope that there are enough mainline jobs for you to get one. Otherwise, you'll be applying to sit on the bottom of the PSA seniority list.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
That wouldn't work if pilots didn't let it. That's the exact reason NW started compass. If nobody applied to work there, it wouldn't work.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Come on, join us in reality! Offer a 250 hour flight instructor a job flying a jet for $23k/yr, he's going to take it. You can try to fight reality all you want, but you're always going to lose.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
Erm, well, since the major job requires twin turbine time, er, well, yes, he is.
I wonder what sort of monetary value I can place on having packs.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Yeah it's pretty crazy, some people would even, ahem, pay for that job
.It's a means to an end. Most of us had to do it. Some get lucky and go military, but most at least on here aren't.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Luck and connections pretty much seals the deal. Haven't got any of that? Cut a corner.Yeah it's pretty crazy, some people would even, ahem, pay for that job
It's a means to an end. Most of us had to do it. Some get lucky and go military, but most at least on here aren't.
CFIscare
Well-Known Member
Serious question, what do you think would have happen if PSA had voted no? Do you think they would have received new planes even if they had voted no?
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Yes. But if you want to re-visit history, lets acknowledge that the company first went to the judge and asked for their 1113 motion contract which was extremely harsh that even the judge said no, and go back and change things. Then it was changed and went to the group for vote. You are correct the court would have appointed it, but there is a stark difference between voting yes and voluntarily accepting something versus having it forced on you via bankruptcy courts. Even if the company had gone back to the judge for the second time, the conditions would not have been worse than what they had already presented to you. The judge drew a line between what the company presented first and what would have been acceptable once changes were made.
Ok, lets take the same industry which is the FFD/regionals. If you take a stand, you will be defeated. This will continue until EVERY regional pilot group grows a pair and decide to say NO. TSA pilots stood to gain 70 seaters, management offered a certain rate, TSA MEC wanted to negotiate, and TSA Corp formed GoJets. There was no shortage of pilots who applied to GoJets, both DEC and FO positions. Comair had an industry leading contract but after 9/11 and concessions throughout the industry they were forced to make numerous cuts, some in BK and some outside. They were shrunk into oblivion and eventually closed. But the recent downturn cycle has started with Endeavor and their dilemma. The pilots (85%) approved a contract that cut pay, capped pay, and had a guaranteed fleet plan. At least this was in BK so one way or another it was probably coming (though again, still not as bad as company proposal #1 the judge turned down). This set the precedent for other legacy airlines (UniCal and US/AA). Now they can do as they please with their regionals in terms of offering guaranteed fleet growth for pay/QOL concessions. It's a hardball game and the PSA pilots played it for themselves. Envoy had a last chance offer to get a fleet plan for concessions/QOL cuts and their pilots voted no. Now the punishment ensues with their entire -700 fleet heading over to PSA. Compass gained some AA EJets and Mesa did as well with United. Who ever signs the cheapest deals gets the big RJs. ALPA has failed the regional pilots and they are all pitted against each other. Union apologists like ATN said that PSA pilots simply traded items for what they valued more (fleet plan and growth) versus preserving pay/QOL. That's a weak excuse and we need to call this for what it is. Unfortunately, as far as AA/US is concerned, this is only the beginning. AA and US have too many regional airlines in their system and as the merger is completed and synergies realized, a few regional airlines will not make it. I'm afraid that Air Wis, arguably one of the best and highest paying 50 seater operations in the regional market, will be cut into oblivion unless they too play ball. Having 71 planes that are only 50-seaters doesn't bode well as it is. There is no shortage of regionals that can fly 50 seaters even cheaper than Air Wis. Envoy is now determined to be only ERJ-140s and -145s. How long until the 44 seaters get parked for being inefficient? That leaves only the 50 seaters and flown with the most senior of the senior that remain at Envoy. Again, you get the same dilemma. In the next few years, based on what regional pilots do (vote) today, will determine who still stands and who disappears. There will be some regional casualties and names that we know today won't be there 2-3 years from now.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
I'm curious, why are you saying this now when just a few years ago, GoJets did the EXACT same thing you are describing in the GoJets/TSA debacle? Now it seems almost everyone here has changed the tune to "you can't beat 'em, just join 'em" whereas just a few years ago GoJets and Mesa were constantly trashed/tarnished here.
As much as a bastard as Ornstein is, he was right when over a decade ago, he made the remark about why should he have to entertain pilot pay raises, when he has an ever growing stack of resumes of pilots willing to work for less than his pilot force, and in some cases, are even willing to pay him for the opportunity.
See the title of this thread:
PSA had 49 acft when the vote took place. AAG just transferred 47 acft.
PSA would not have gotten acft.
I think PSA would have been made an example of and possibly forced Eagle into voting yes.