USA Today Article About Regional Airlines

"Even if you were to double or triple the salaries tomorrow, that is not going to increase the pipeline of pilots overnight," Cohen says.
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Hmmm, interesting point! Hey here's an idea, why not try it, and see what happens!?
 
"If pilot salaries rise, Bedford says, it is his job to find offsetting costs and live within the contract. "It's not Delta's problem, it's not United's problem, it's not American's problem - it's Republic's problem."

That sounds a lot like posturing......
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
Stay profitable? You mean become profitable (for some of them). I think XJT is going to declare bankruptcy before too long.
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That too.

HVYMETALDRVR said:
I'll tell you one thing (regardless of low pilot pay etc) I wouldn't be investing or buying stock in any regional airlines right now.
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If you were smart enough in the sector to make an educated guess as to which firms will be bought out vice which will bust, there'd be a real profit opportunity.
I think the industry will smash down to five or fewer firms inside of five years....

Back to the conversation... there simply isn't much head-room on the income statement for more pay, and revenue increases aren't possible because of contracts.
 
SeanD said:
Not a bad article for USA Today. Its mostly about poor pay. Bedford and that terd Roger Cohen make statements.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/today...regional-airlines-as-majors-prosper/15437841/
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I can't help but wonder with all the articles coming out about pilot pay pilot shortage Congress talking about it a hell of a lot more alpa now with a snazzy video do you get the feeling something is about to happen? Like say after the midterm elections?
Pure speculation but when there is a lot of activity all of a sudden I say hmmmmmmmmm.
 
So pay can't go up because of the CPA contracts, and the current pay isn't attracting pilots. Regionals have started canceling flights and parking airplanes, and that trend will likely increase.

But at some point, a major airline has to realize that if they want their feed flown, it actually is their problem.
 
More of the same. It'll get worse before it gets better. But don't worry we'll make some more laws that further complicate things.
 
hook_dupin said:
They can't and stay profitable. That's the problem.
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I don't disagree with you, but what about eliminating first year pay across the board? I know it's been said a million times, but would that not attract a lot more pilots for the time being? Instead of the regionals dealing with partially full classes, I'd bet they would all fill up immediately. I know plenty of guys who would love a shot at the airlines, but can't survive on first year. Eliminate first year, no new payscales required, you wouldn't have to double or triple salaries, and in the end the bosses come out looking like good guys because they're offering a livable wage.
 
Mark815 said:
I don't disagree with you, but what about eliminating first year pay across the board? I know it's been said a million times, but would that not attract a lot more pilots for the time being? Instead of the regionals dealing with partially full classes, I'd bet they would all fill up immediately. I know plenty of guys who would love a shot at the airlines, but can't survive on first year. Eliminate first year, no new payscales required, you wouldn't have to double or triple salaries, and in the end the bosses come out looking like good guys because they're offering a livable wage.
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That won't work because of union negotiated contracts. The unions are not going to allow you to raise only first year pay when the pilots on property are continuing to suffer under abysmal pay. Pay really doesn't get much better after the first year at most regionals anyways. When you are paying between $600-$1,000 a month on your student loans, you need to be earning around $50k to live comfortably (not in your parents basement). When you add in that most airline bases are in expensive cities where rent is sky high or you will need a crash pad, its not that comfortable even on $50k.
 
Mark815 said:
I don't disagree with you, but what about eliminating first year pay across the board? I know it's been said a million times, but would that not attract a lot more pilots for the time being? Instead of the regionals dealing with partially full classes, I'd bet they would all fill up immediately. I know plenty of guys who would love a shot at the airlines, but can't survive on first year. Eliminate first year, no new payscales required, you wouldn't have to double or triple salaries, and in the end the bosses come out looking like good guys because they're offering a livable wage.
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The unions want their senior CAs making 100k to participate in the pay raise, so they are demanding ~$20/hr raise for them. Companies have already tried it but the unions are blocking it and forcing the low pay to remain.

I agree however that even at $40/hr the pay would still be below what entry level pay should be.
 
flyinggreasemnky said:
That won't work because of union negotiated contracts. The unions are not going to allow you to raise only first year pay
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I don't think I'm going to win any friends with this post, but I'm going to reply anyway. You started off well with the above. Pinnacle was the perfect example of this back in 2007ish. It was before I was hired in March 2008, so I don't remember exactly when it was. Anyway, Pinnacle was having a lot of trouble with pilot retention and couldn't hire enough pilots. Management wanted to raise first year pay and the pilot group voted against it (the group was heavily influenced by the Union). Management then offered signing bonuses as their way around ALPA. That only lasted until the Union fought to have it stopped.

flyinggreasemnky said:
Twhen the pilots on property are continuing to suffer under abysmal pay. Pay really doesn't get much better after the first year at most regionals anyways.
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This is where most pilots lose the argument. Do I think pay as a regional FO should be brought up? Absolutely. But don't confuse that with saying pay is abysmal for the entire pilot group. Captains at quite a few regionals can and do make six figure incomes. Even FOs can make over $50k, which, by the way, was the US Median Household Income in 2011. That's far from abysmal.

flyinggreasemnky said:
When you are paying between $600-$1,000 a month on your student loans, you need to be earning around $50k to live comfortably (not in your parents basement).
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Not your company's problem. Not even the industry's problem. If a person decided to take out a six figure debt, it is that person's responsibility and no one else's. Plenty of others have figured out how to get through training without it.
 
[QUOTE="SrFnFly227, post: 2335524, member: 18860"PA.

Even FOs can make over $50k, which, by the way, was the US Median Household Income in 2011. That's far from abysmal.

[/QUOTE]

Someone that invests so heavily in education and professional experience shouldn't be living on ramen noodles and living in their parent's basements because student loans match or exceed salary.

The other night I had dinner with my new neighbors. As we got into the where are you from and what do you do discussion, they asked me about pilots and all the media lately. So we started this discussion about education costs and ROI. He's an architect and she's a mechanical engineer, both in their late 20's. They each have a masters degree in their field and they estimated their combined education costs to be $180,000. Two graduate and undergrad degrees for what I'm told on campus education is at a flight college. I didn't ask about their salaries, but I have an idea based on other friends I have that work in the same fields and it's better than $22k first year.

I really hate to say it, but the barriers to entry are just getting worse and deterring more and more people. My pilot friend's with teenage and college age children are not pursuing aviation, even though mom or dad is a pilot. They are going in to STEM fields because it is a better ROI.
 
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CFI A&P said:
I really hate to say it, but the barriers to entry are just getting worse and deterring more and more people. My pilot friend's with teenage and college age children are not pursuing aviation, even though mom or dad is a pilot. They are going in to STEM fields because it is a better ROI.
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pete2800 said:
So pay can't go up because of the CPA contracts, and the current pay isn't attracting pilots. Regionals have started canceling flights and parking airplanes, and that trend will likely increase.

But at some point, a major airline has to realize that if they want their feed flown, it actually is their problem.
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I don't have a crystal ball, but I thinj it's likely you'll see a continuation of current policy. If the 50seater can't get to you're small town from delta, it won't get there from United either. So drive 3.5 hours to the next airport. We already know yu can't pay more for the ticket becuase you'll simply drive 3.5 hours or not go at all. Now this may all change for small towns but I doubt it.

For middling sized cities you'll see two 88's or two 717's instead of four RJs.

Passengers on the whole aren't making a ton more is year than the last. So they can't pay the extra costs for continued RJ service. So we don't really need the 50 seater feed when Americans can drive 3 hours (often much less) instead.

The RJ market may well be a failing or failed model. It's tough to imagine but I honestly believe the RJ flying will be reduced to 3-6k pilots who can make it on 50k-100k, probably their spouses do well, and the other 14-17k will simply fly for the majors or fit in some other way.
 
jynxyjoe said:
I don't have a crystal ball, but I thinj it's likely you'll see a continuation of current policy. If the 50seater can't get to you're small town from delta, it won't get there from United either. So drive 3.5 hours to the next airport. We already know yu can't pay more for the ticket becuase you'll simply drive 3.5 hours or not go at all. Now this may all change for small towns but I doubt it.

For middling sized cities you'll see two 88's or two 717's instead of four RJs.

Passengers on the whole aren't making a ton more is year than the last. So they can't pay the extra costs for continued RJ service. So we don't really need the 50 seater feed when Americans can drive 3 hours (often much less) instead.

The RJ market may well be a failing or failed model. It's tough to imagine but I honestly believe the RJ flying will be reduced to 3-6k pilots who can make it on 50k-100k, probably their spouses do well, and the other 14-17k will simply fly for the majors or fit in some other way.
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This is possible, but I see one issue. If the most major airlines collectively exit small markets and reduce capacity... They also set the stage for small start-up airlines with pilots on first-year pay to enter the market. The same goes for reducing frequency. New competitors are not something that DAL/UAL/AA are going to be happy about dealing with. See SWA in the 80's and 90's for an example.
 
pete2800 said:
This is possible, but I see one issue. If the most major airlines collectively exit small markets and reduce capacity... They also set the stage for small start-up airlines with pilots on first-year pay to enter the market. New competitors are not something that DAL/UAL/AA are going to be happy about dealing with. See SWA in the 80's and 90's for an example.
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Absolutely, that is happening now. Theres a peoples express startup with 737s taking the old Airtran routes SWA is leaving behind.

The companies will eventually get tired on managing small returns on investiments and rely on their network to blunt any small startup. Sometimes it works, sometimes SWA wins. It's all a cycle.
 
SrFnFly227 said:
This is where most pilots lose the argument. Do I think pay as a regional FO should be brought up? Absolutely. But don't confuse that with saying pay is abysmal for the entire pilot group. Captains at quite a few regionals can and do make six figure incomes. Even FOs can make over $50k, which, by the way, was the US Median Household Income in 2011. That's far from abysmal.
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The problem is that is not across the board. At Republic, Mesa, GoJet, etc, you can not make anywhere near 50k as a senior FO. I average around 100 hours a month credit at RAH and my take home will probably be $42k, That is working my butt off to make sure I work every holiday (holiday pay), pick up trips from the trade board, etc. I've only got one more raise as an FO coming and it will only be $1.10/hr more.

Yeah, there are CAs that do really well but there are plenty of reserve CAs that are barely making over $50k because they are at min guarantee every month. So its not like most Captains make that much. At RAH because we have no work rules, you probably won't make over $100k until you've been at the company 14 years ($92.54/hr on the 170) and pick up extra flying (90 hours credit a month). At Endeavor, the max payrate is $87/hr for CAs on the 900 which means you would have to credit over 96 hours a month to hit $100k.

SrFnFly227 said:
Not your company's problem. Not even the industry's problem. If a person decided to take out a six figure debt, it is that person's responsibility and no one else's. Plenty of others have figured out how to get through training without it.
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It is my company's and the industry's problem as the paths to getting through training with zero debt are drying up. Those mom & pop schools are closing up shop and all you have left are Universities and the large 141 schools that charge as much as $270/hr for a single engine trainer. WMU charges $233/hr for a Cirrus and $37/hr for the instructor. I still don't know how students are paying for it now because that doesn't even take into account tuition or room and board. My company needs pilots and the industry needs pilots but no one can become one without a significant investment which has to have a positive return. When the costs are about the same for Medical or Law School, which one do you think someone will choose. The regionals and the entire industry need to realize that it is their problem when people are leaving or not even entering the field because they pay too little and the costs are too high.

Funny thing, most people that state its possible to become a pilot with zero debt did it several years ago, had mom and dad help them or took several years to do it. The only other way to go through with zero debt is the GI Bill and that isn't an option for a lot of people either, especially with the military shrinking. You need a to get a large amount of people in the right seat now when they are needed. The only solution with a reasonable timetable is to raise pay to attract those that have left or been sitting on the sidelines into the industry.
 
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