Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
Good point. That is lacking in most training programs
Four Case Western Students Killed in 172 Crash
- Thread starter SeanD
- Start date
ozone
Well-Known Member
To the repeated points made about "average weight"; the 170 lb estimate is off by 20 pounds these days. Here's the stats on the the 'average' american male as of 2013:
Average American Adult Male:Height (inches): 5′ 9″ or 173.25 centimeters
Weight (pounds): 191 pounds or 86.6 Kilograms
Waist circumference (inches): 39.0 inches or 97.5 centimeters
Body Mass Index (BMI 18-24 healthy): 28
Entertaining link about "average" adult sizes, complete with avatars: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/10/this-is-the-average-mans-body/280194/
Average American Adult Male:Height (inches): 5′ 9″ or 173.25 centimeters
Weight (pounds): 191 pounds or 86.6 Kilograms
Waist circumference (inches): 39.0 inches or 97.5 centimeters
Body Mass Index (BMI 18-24 healthy): 28
Entertaining link about "average" adult sizes, complete with avatars: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/10/this-is-the-average-mans-body/280194/
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
What instructors are teaching this?
Admittedly, it has been 20 years since I've been around a whole lot of basic GA instruction, but what I was taught as gospel was to NEVER EVER EVER turn back to the departure runway. This was a mantra parroted by every instructor I flew with without fail. Only a couple high-time guys would ever say "it can be done", but it was always with an enormous "BUT..." caveat.
Old Pete
Cockpit Authoritarian
I have taught it. And I think maybe we ought to consider teaching it more. There are far too many airports where the terrain straight ahead is so inhospitable to a forced landing, that to say never ever is truly limiting one's options for survival. If you can teach someone to perform descending, gliding turns with out stalling the airplane, you can teach some one to do the "impossible turn".
Look at what we already teach pilots to do: for the commercial single engine we have to teach power off 180's and steep spirals. If a pilot can perform these two maneuvers to PTS then I don't see why they can't, given the appropriate altitude for the aircraft, return to the airport after an engine failure. Look at glider pilots, (@drunkenbeagle may be able to help me with this) I believe they are required to perform this maneuver at 200 to 300ft agl (simulating a towline break) before they solo.
Look at what we already teach pilots to do: for the commercial single engine we have to teach power off 180's and steep spirals. If a pilot can perform these two maneuvers to PTS then I don't see why they can't, given the appropriate altitude for the aircraft, return to the airport after an engine failure. Look at glider pilots, (@drunkenbeagle may be able to help me with this) I believe they are required to perform this maneuver at 200 to 300ft agl (simulating a towline break) before they solo.
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drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
I teach and demonstrate it. Actually, I like it to be part of the departure brief.
Gliders, 200' is the 180 altitude. Airplanes, 1,000, and always turn into the wind.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
I taught the high key / low key forced landing approach. I would also demonstrate a 180 return to departure runway at several different altitudes to show how it is almost always a bad idea.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
This is the issue right here.
TWP
Well-Known Member
Agreed. It's taught as an impossible turn because for most aircraft in most situations with the average GA pilots skill, by the time your engine fails, if you attempt to do a 180 degree turn back to the airport you will put the thing in the ground before you get there.
If we taught private guys all this "if this but that" or "well in this a/c sometimes when the sun is just right" stuff, we would have people putting planes into the ground instead of just gliding to a suitable field.
Give them the hard fast rules early on (essentially the standard playbook), then show them this stuff when they have the ability to handle it. The enormous "BUT" caveat is simply too big for beginners and honestly, it's too big for most people in GA until they have lots of hours under their belt.
It's unfortunate what happened to these kids, but lets not give newbies the impression that the impossible turn is a lie, because more times than not, it IS in fact, impossible.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
TWP
Well-Known Member
Agreed.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Problem is when you teach it, mentally the pilot knows the engine hasn't really failed, it's at idle power and they are simulating an engine out. They calmly turn back. The real thing is totally different. Adrenaline, breathing rate increasing, chances of tunnel vision as you attempt to find the runway behind you by craning your neck behind to see as you turn. There are so many factors in a real engine failure scenario that can lead to missing the airspeed. Throw in night time, as it was here at Case and in Phoenix East Aviation at Daytona Beach, and it's pretty much a guaranteed fatality. The question is what the appropriate altitude is. Personally, I think if you've already made it to traffic pattern altitude, then the turn back can be attempted. Plenty of time/room to sort yourself out. But any lower than that, and especially below 500 feet, there is no way I'd turn back nor would I want to teach that. There are far too many crashes and statistics that show a turn back going horribly wrong. Those who have successfully done a turn back in many cases swear they wouldn't do it again.
Gliders are different. Different aspect ratios, lower stalling speeds, and glider pilots never have an engine to begin with so they are already trained as constant engine-out pilots.
KKochan
Well-Known Member
I wish I hadn't been taught to turn back, regardless of the disclaimer of not below 500ft etc. I think it ingrains the wrong reaction into your brain. Makes you want to make it back to that runway if something is amiss. Makes you feel like that runway is your only safety. We unfortunately know that can be deadly wrong.
Max Power
Well-Known Member
We all did unsafe/stupid/poor judgement things as low time pilots, for whatever reason. Lack of experience, lack of proper instruction,etc. Sometimes you get "experience", sometimes you die and take four people with you. This is certainly a tragedy for the families and hopefully they find closure somehow.
I used to do sightseeing flights as an instructor in 160 and 180 hp 172's. We had a "light" 172P with 180hp that nearly had the useful load of our 182RG. But I also did it in our R model with 160hp with a cruise prop. You certainly can put four adults aboard if the tanks are down. You can do it on a hot day. You can't fix an engine failure from the cockpit and making the "impossible turn" isn't impossible, if you have the altitude and speed to pull it off. But you have to know that and drill yourself on it.
But the above paragraph weren't things I learned until I was an instructor and flying (and teaching)all the time. A low time pilot or not so current pilot?
I used to do sightseeing flights as an instructor in 160 and 180 hp 172's. We had a "light" 172P with 180hp that nearly had the useful load of our 182RG. But I also did it in our R model with 160hp with a cruise prop. You certainly can put four adults aboard if the tanks are down. You can do it on a hot day. You can't fix an engine failure from the cockpit and making the "impossible turn" isn't impossible, if you have the altitude and speed to pull it off. But you have to know that and drill yourself on it.
But the above paragraph weren't things I learned until I was an instructor and flying (and teaching)all the time. A low time pilot or not so current pilot?
Oxman
Well-Known Member
Let the lawsuits begin. (Rightfully so). A friend close to it said the parents even filed one against the university as hazing just in case. The lack of procedures on the flying club mgt will come out now.
What I haven't heard anywhere is the mention of the golf course across the street. Had they stayed straight on departure and not turn they could have landed there.
What I haven't heard anywhere is the mention of the golf course across the street. Had they stayed straight on departure and not turn they could have landed there.
dustoff17
Still trying to reach the Top Shelf
So the University allowed the pilot to "haze" their child to death using an airplane? Wow............I hate our tort laws!
amorris311
Well-Known Member
Before you make a statement like that why don't you wait and see of this even goes to trial. You can file a lawsuit and claim some outrageous things. In the end most do not even see the light of day in the courtroom.
Bernoulli Fan
Controller
"Rightfully so"?
180 back to the runway.
Not impossible at all.
Know when they can be done, and when they can't be done; have that preplanned and in your head prior to takeoff for the particular airplane you're flying.
Teaching its impossible, is removing a potential tool from one's toolbox needlessly that could potentially come in handy.
Not impossible at all.
Know when they can be done, and when they can't be done; have that preplanned and in your head prior to takeoff for the particular airplane you're flying.
Teaching its impossible, is removing a potential tool from one's toolbox needlessly that could potentially come in handy.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Golf courses, like trees, are very hard to see at night time.