Great CRM: 767 uncontained engine fire/tear drop return with CVR/FDR.

cencal83406 said:
However, we are oil to Part 135's water.... "trained monkeys", "can't think outside the box", etc. So it's not likely that corporate aviation will agree with the method with which 121 achieves and maintains its safety record.
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I can say this: Cape Air's safety record improved significantly when folks with 121 backgrounds showed up. The old cowboy ways have no place in professional aviation, 121 or otherwise. "I didn't die today" isn't a measure of safety.
 
GypsyPilot said:
Boris, I'm willing to bet you won't see a single 121 pilot on this forum that agrees with how this scenario went down. 121 also has the best safety record out there. I'm thinking it isn't a coincidence.
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I'm not sure what his position is, even after having a short private discussion with him. He's a smart guy, but he doesn't take a moment to listen to those with more experience have to say on any subject, particularly safety. I mean, he reads the words, then says, "But safety means XYZ," which is funny coming from someone who says they studied philosophy.

At any rate, I agree that it's likely no coincidence that part 121 has such a strong safety record.
 
I wouldn't call all 135 unsafe. When I was flying the Saab under 135 the procedures were the same as when I flew it under 121 with only slight differences in operating it on the ground and those were more conservative than 121 ops.
 
Roger Roger said:
I'll agree with that.

Neither do 3 aviators who couldn't avoid putting a wide body into a seawall in broad daylight. Safety cultures and whatnot are great but at some point people have to be able to fly the dang airplane.
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My view on safety culture assumes (nay, demands) that you can fly the airplane.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
My view on safety culture assumes (nay, demands) that you can fly the airplane.
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Do you really, deep down, think that one can surrender their autonomy on all issues that are covered in a procedure, checklist, checking-event, or whatever orthodox shibboleth, and just suddenly regain it, none the worse for wear, when confronted by something that isn't?

For my part, I have my doubts. And I've always been of the mind that, yes, of course you fly as you've been taught to fly, as long as it makes sense. Duh. It's not like I'm suggesting that every procedure is wrong or stupid. Most, maybe even the vast majority, aren't...most of the time. But to simply slavishly devote yourself to whatever the current orthodoxy is seems, since we're being incendiary here, like abdicating your responsibility to the people you're supposed to be protecting. Twenty years ago, you get into an inadvertent stall in a jet, and it's hold your pitch and radar power, or it's extra sessions for you! Then ABX planted that DC-8 in the lovely pastures of Virginia. Now, if you don't lower the nose it's an unsat. "Safety" is, as always, an evolving concept. There will be feet put right and feet put wrong in this evolution, probably for the rest of time. I do not, nor, IMHO, should you, simply surrender my prerogative to fly the airplane the way that seems safest to me, with the guidance I've received always in mind, but never above it. It's why we're still there.

Also, jtrain is a HACK, and Carthage must be destroyed.
 
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Roger Roger said:
Neither do 3 aviators who couldn't avoid putting a wide body into a seawall in broad daylight. Safety cultures and whatnot are great but at some point people have to be able to fly the dang airplane.
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A safety culture does not exempt anyone from being able to do their job. Not sure why Asiana keeps coming up in this thread; it's entirely misplaced.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Do you really, deep down, think that one can surrender their autonomy on all issues that are covered in a procedure, checklist, checking-event, or whatever orthodox shibboleth, and just suddenly regain it, none the worse for wear, when confronted by something that isn't?
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Man, you really have a skewed view about 121 ops, don't you? :)

Sorry to disappoint, but we're not all a bunch of checklist-reading automatons. Not sure where you guys keep hearing that. Anyone who's actually flown 121 knows that's not the case.
 
dasleben said:
Man, you really have a skewed view about 121 ops, don't you? :)
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I dunno, maybe. What do you think those ABX guys would say, if we could ask them?

Also, I wasn't really singling out 121 ops. I've been given plenty of sim-instruction that, imho, while it would be right in most situations, would be a good way to get killed in others. *shrug*
 
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dasleben said:
A safety culture does not exempt anyone from being able to do their job. Not sure why Asiana keeps coming up in this thread; it's entirely misplaced.
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Not really, the Asiana thing.

If that had been a regional crew there would be no talk of "human factors" ere would be talk of "children of the magenta line".

The OP video displays a piss poor performance of current safety practices. I would be willing to bet, this captains background is from an era and mindset of fly the airplane AND manage the problem via rote memory, thus he reverted to that under stress.

The goal posts for safety and best CRM practices keeps moving, couple that with the law of primacy and there are bound to be examples of previous generations of thought not meeting the current standard.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I dunno, maybe. What do you think those ATI guys would say, if we could ask them?

Also, I wasn't really singling out 121 ops. I've been given plenty of sim-instruction that, imho, while it would be right in most situations, would be a good way to get killed in others. *shrug*
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Post-Air France stall training in 121 is quite a bit more realistic to actual ops. Autopilot on, speedbrakes out, turning, etc. How is it done in your sim training?
 
Boris Badenov said:
Do you really, deep down, think that one can surrender their autonomy on all issues that are covered in a procedure, checklist, checking-event, or whatever orthodox shibboleth, and just suddenly regain it, none the worse for wear, when confronted by something that isn't?
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Do you really think that is how my regional job is?
 
No idea how any of your jobs are, I only see through the tiny little keyhole of what you say on JC. I mean, to me, it looks like Jtrain is having sex with wildlife, but it's a very small opening. Oh, gross, not like that.
 
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