Great CRM: 767 uncontained engine fire/tear drop return with CVR/FDR.

ChasenSFO

ChasenSFO

hen teaser

In 2004, this Blue Panorama(Italian charter airline) 767-300 was departing Rome for Havana when it had an engine fire right after V1, made a 180 tear drop turn and an over-weight landing on the opposite end of the departure runway. There were minor injuries with the evacuation, as is usually expected, but otherwise everyone was safe. I found this video really interesting with how quickly crap hits the fan(fire bell right before V1), tower doesn't even notice the fire and casually hands them off, and the CA so quickly gets the jet turned around while managing the crew and the emergency. Very interesting, you can tell from the stress in the captains voice, how many times does he tell the F/O "Quickly, quickly", that he really had his hands full.

This photo was taken after the evacuation, the airplane had been leased to Hawaiian Airlines prior to this carrier flying it.
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ChasenSFO said:
[Very interesting, you can tell from the stress in the captains voice, how many times does he tell the F/O "Quickly, quickly", that he really had his hands full.
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I wasn't there, but the first line of my QRC/QRH is bold capital letters:

>>> FLY THE AIRPLANE <<<
CANCEL THE WARNING
IDENTIFY THE EMERGENCY
READ THE CHECKLIST
>>> DO NOT HURRY <<<
​



Anyway, thanks for posting. I'd never seen that one before; interesting.
 
Captain had his hands full, he's running the cockpit, flying, doing the radios, and the back. IMO the FO sounded green. I don't know about their QRH but shutting down the engine from memory and blowing the bottle is not in any of the planes I have flown recently. That is the old school methodology.
 
Bandit_Driver said:
Captain had his hands full, he's running the cockpit, flying, doing the radios, and the back. IMO the FO sounded green. I don't know about their QRH but shutting down the engine from memory and blowing the bottle is not in any of the planes I have flown recently. That is the old school methodology.
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I fly old skool airplanes then.
 

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It's so nice to listen to a professional air crew handle a serious emergency well.

A fire is an urgent thing to deal with in the airplane-especially once you've exhausted all your firefighting options and it's still there. It's pretty much the most serious thing I can realistically imagine dealing with in an airplane.

My initial reaction to the recording is that the Captain was imparting a sense of urgency by saying "quickly, quickly." "Urgency" and "panic" are two different animals entirely. Getting on the ground ASAP was of utmost importance, and getting the airplane safely configured as quickly as possible was top priority. I think it's hard to infer so much into the crew dynamic from such a short recording, but the FO may very well have either been fairly new or not really grasping the situation at the same level the captain did.

As a side note, blowing an engine is not always going to be like the standard sim profiles. An uncontained engine failure could very well change the handling characteristics of the airplane via additional drag and possible wing/control surface damage. Combine that with a fire that my instruments tell me is still burning, and I'm going to get the aircraft on the ground ASAP. No problem being "quick" with the checklists. At that point, the priority is getting the airplane in a position and configuration to land safely.

The words of my indoc instructor, and every instructor I'd had up to that point, have rung in my ear during my two emergencies: "Don't do anything stupid fast." These guys heeded that advice very well.
 
Another point: my airline doesn't have memory immediate action items for engine fires or failures. However, I've seen the exact same airplane operated by another carrier WITH those immediate action items.
 
Interesting to say the least.

Definitely old school style of thinking and flying. It turned out okay in this instance, but man I could dissect so many procedural errors and places that it could have gone horribly wrong that it would take quite a few pages to write. That was certainly not what I would teach nor what I would look for in a checkride. The level of safety was reduced to unacceptable levels.

We could start with why did he not reject with an engine fire prior to V1? The speed was quite high and it could have been very close to V1, but from the time delay of the fire warning and the F.O. calling "V1 rotate" it looked like about a 15 knot spread.

It ended with an unstable approach and touchdown beyond the touchdown zone; blew all the tires; and injured 16 passengers in the evacuation.

Definitely not the best example of handling an engine fire on takeoff with subsequent return.



Typhoonpilot
 
Av8n4life said:
A fire is an urgent thing to deal with in the airplane-especially once you've exhausted all your firefighting options and it's still there. It's pretty much the most serious thing I can realistically imagine dealing with in an airplane.
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As far as an engine fire though, I can't speak for all airplanes and I'm not very well versed in part 25 but I think the engine is expected to basically burn within itself and eventually just fall off the wing. Really not a major ordeal if it happens as it's designed...lightens the load a bit too right?
 
Nick said:
As far as an engine fire though, I can't speak for all airplanes and I'm not very well versed in part 25 but I think the engine is expected to basically burn within itself and eventually just fall off the wing. Really not a major ordeal if it happens as it's designed...lightens the load a bit too right?
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I would say yes to an extent. Once the engine fire handle is pulled all fuel and hydraulics are shut off. The fire doesn't have that much fuel left to continue burning with. Yes, it might burn but it should be internal to the engine and not affect the aircraft structure. If the fire warning is still illuminated after firing both extinguisher bottles in a passenger airplane I would make a call back to the cabin and ask them to confirm. In a B777-300 or -300ER I could look in the ground maneuver camera to see for myself. If there was no smoke or fire it could well have been a false warning. Still needs to be treated as real and an expeditious return for landing carried out, but no need to cowboy around the pattern like that.




TP
 
Nick said:
I wasn't there, but the first line of my QRC/QRH is bold capital letters:

>>> FLY THE AIRPLANE <<<
CANCEL THE WARNING
IDENTIFY THE EMERGENCY
READ THE CHECKLIST
>>> DO NOT HURRY <<<
​

Anyway, thanks for posting. I'd never seen that one before; interesting.
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My thought too. Also that whole "aviate navigate communicate" thing. 600 ft with a burning engine and he's arguing with ATC about what runway to land? Declare an emergency and fight the fire.
 
Nick said:
As far as an engine fire though, I can't speak for all airplanes and I'm not very well versed in part 25 but I think the engine is expected to basically burn within itself and eventually just fall off the wing. Really not a major ordeal if it happens as it's designed...lightens the load a bit too right?
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To add to what TP said, yeah a pod engine fire isn't generally as serious as and engine fire inside the fuselage, for example that you'd find in a fighter jet like an F-15/16, where with an engine fire, your whole jet will shortly be on fire, if not detonate. Any fire is still serious, of course, and compounding problems could potentially arise from a fire that cannot be extinguished.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Yeah, well, if I'm on fire and the QRH tells me to relax and slow down, I'm going to be a bit skeptical.

Captain was ProMode. Controller sounded like a Mario Brother.
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We don't hurry, even if on fire. Unless there's an overriding reason to start the checklist early, for a V1 cut (fire indications included) we wait until cleaned up and accelerating before we even think about starting the emergency checklist. It normally takes at least a few minutes to climb to 1,000 feet, clean up the flaps, and complete the after takeoff checklist.

BUT the captain has the authority to call for the checklist as low as 400 feet if necessary. We give that as an out for very extenuating circumstances though, not typical procedure.

Hurrying will get your ass killed.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
We don't hurry, even if on fire. Unless there's an overriding reason to start the checklist early, for a V1 cut (fire indications included) we wait until cleaned up and accelerating before we even think about starting the emergency checklist. It normally takes at least a few minutes to climb to 1,000 feet, clean up the flaps, and complete the after takeoff checklist.

BUT the captain has the authority to call for the checklist as low as 400 feet if necessary. We give that as an out for very extenuating circumstances though, not typical procedure.

Hurrying will get your ass killed.
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Doesn't do you any good to be running the checklist before climbing away, that you fly yourself into the ground in the middle of the checklist.

If time was so critical that the delay in flying the airplane first and at least getting it pointed where you want to safely before running the checklist, would end up getting you killed; then you were a dead man walking anyway.
 
typhoonpilot said:
Interesting to say the least.

Definitely old school style of thinking and flying. It turned out okay in this instance, but man I could dissect so many procedural errors and places that it could have gone horribly wrong that it would take quite a few pages to write. That was certainly not what I would teach nor what I would look for in a checkride. The level of safety was reduced to unacceptable levels.

We could start with why did he not reject with an engine fire prior to V1? The speed was quite high and it could have been very close to V1, but from the time delay of the fire warning and the F.O. calling "V1 rotate" it looked like about a 15 knot spread.

It ended with an unstable approach and touchdown beyond the touchdown zone; blew all the tires; and injured 16 passengers in the evacuation.

Definitely not the best example of handling an engine fire on takeoff with subsequent return.



Typhoonpilot
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Interesting analysis.

Initially, I asked myself the same question about why he did not reject with the fire bell below V1.

A high speed reject would certainly be appropriate, and I can say I would have chosen that option--if the airplane had been at V1. However, we don't know for sure that the FO actually called V1 AT V1. The airplane may or may not have already been at or right near V1. Plus, according to the EPR readout, the engine was still producing takeoff power.

I only watched the video once, so I'll have to go back to see whether or not the approach was "stable." I'm not sure I would judge whether or not the airplane landed in the touchdown zone from an FDR readout with runway overlay.

The tires didn't "blow," the fusible plugs melted (per design).

Don't get me wrong, I see your point. I do believe they could and probably should have taken more time to set up, brief and configure than they did. It's just hard to cast judgment on the crew because Simland is not real life, and this was not a sim ride.
 
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