Possible pilot deviation...any comments from the controller experts?
- Thread starter Falcon50driver
- Start date
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Or CVG... Not issuing RNAV "OTG" IAW the Jepp charting. Or ORF ground getting snippy about clarifying taxi instructions.
What came first? Chicken or the egg? No idea but I've run into many angry controllers and when they get difficult or snippy, it's really not that hard to file an ASAP about them. If we are going to be held to exacting standards like no comms, might as well do the same.
I guess my point is: ATC provides a service. You are there for me. So, it's less about asking and more about stating what we are doing (especially when it comes to the weather).
pilotmec
Well-Known Member
No, I think I understood the question, I was just using an illustration to say he needs to get the tapes. Without ATC recordings I would not have been able to reclassify it to a non event. And believe it or not, not all ASI's will request the tapes either, just work the PD and send it on for certificate action.I don't think [USER=16431 said:
Lol!!! You must be one of the 757 drivers that departs/arrives and wants to go wherever they want regardless of what PIREPs say the weather is actually like in the area. By the way, WE aren't there because YOU are flying, WE are there because of YOU and EVERYONE wants to fly at the exact same time. You can drop this whole "I'm the only one in the sky mindset" when it comes to deviating during weather events.
spades9048
Well-Known Member
It's only you stating what you're doing if you declare an emergency...even in weather. No, you're not going to fly through weather but don't act like there is only one way to fly around it and it's your way.
Bottom line...I don't care if you want a shortcut around it. I am not moving twenty other planes just because you think I'm there for you. If you declare an emergency then yeah, we'll move the world for you but don't for a second think we are going to inconvenience everyone else in the sky because you think we should.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
As a general FYI, the term "Brasher Warning" comes from a 1987 NTSB case saying, because part of the policy of giving a pilot deviation warning is to enable flight crew to be aware there is a possibility of enforcement action and "collect their thoughts," failure to give it should result in a waiver of any sanctions if there is enforcement action taken.
Far from a guarantee there will be enforcement action, it's part of the standard phraseology controllers are supposed to use to keep the FAA's options open.
Will there be some sort of enforcement action in this one? Hard to tell without knowing the whole situation - if the radio silence resulted in traffic issues, the chance of action becomes more likely. Not much you can do about it at this point unless/until they contact you, so don't waste time and mental energy dwelling on it. But since "first contact" could be an informal phone call to discuss rather than a formal written "Letter of Investigation" best to start considering now what you would say, if anything. Best way is still a cheap in-advance discussion with an aviation lawyer (cheap in relation to what it costs for defense down the road).
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
If you want me to declare an emergency I will, but if I need 15 left for weather, and you don't give me the go, or a good alternative, it's "ATC, I'm turning 15 left for weather."
My favorite phrase with controllers is "unable".
Bernoulli Fan
Controller
Wow, that didn't take long. Where'd the popcorn emoticon go?
spades9048
Well-Known Member
If you want me to declare an emergency I will, but if I need 15 left for weather, and you don't give me the go, or a good alternative, it's "ATC, I'm turning 15 left for weather."
My favorite phrase with controllers is "unable".
Forget it. If you want to start fights then start fights. Just don't be surprised when it comes back to bite you.
Falcon50driver
Well-Known Member
This is getting interesting ,i think i should give mi opinion here even if its not got anything to do with my original post.
When i need to deviate for weather i usually input what i would like ,if atc comes back to say " my other traffic has deviated the other way " ill say " fine ,i can do that " no big deal ,.Or i could just give the controller the choice "i can deviate left or right ,whatever you like best" sometimes you dont know if theres a warning area active were you would " like" to go.
When i need to deviate for weather i usually input what i would like ,if atc comes back to say " my other traffic has deviated the other way " ill say " fine ,i can do that " no big deal ,.Or i could just give the controller the choice "i can deviate left or right ,whatever you like best" sometimes you dont know if theres a warning area active were you would " like" to go.
genot
Well-Known Member
I screw up call signs on the regular. 99% of the time its because your call sign is step number two and between step number one and two I've mentally constructed steps 3- 9 and I've juxtaposed step 9's call sign on your flight number. That's a problem with being a human being, much like the pilot cleared to 15,000 who read back 1,500 in my previous post. We're kind of fallible. I remind myself to not be a jerk, but I know I come off that way at times. I can guarantee the few times I have come across as having an attitude have been preceded by numerous oblivious pilots.
Similarly I could toss out my experience of having a Major LCC (is that a thing?) demand, Center's, Tower's and my facilities number because we dared have him follow a life guard. I can paint that with a broad brush also.
genot
Well-Known Member
Excuse my ignorance and PM me if need be, but how do you work a PD without the tapes? I can't even run Simu Visuals
without a regional HQ review.
genot
Well-Known Member
If you want me to declare an emergency I will, but if I need 15 left for weather, and you don't give me the go, or a good alternative, it's "ATC, I'm turning 15 left for weather."
My favorite phrase with controllers is "unable".
Have you ever toured a RADAR facility? My level of no you can't runs like this. Emergency, no you can't impede them, THEN forcing another aircraft into either a mid air OR forcing them into the really awful weather. Your unable forces other pilots to fly through the worst of it, or you know, mid airs.
As a terminal guy your cockiness amuses me. No I won't go left. OK turn right. ZOMG when can I get higher? If you'd gone left you'd be climbing past FL200 right now on course and not stuck at 7,000 opposite direction while that KC135 is rocking you with his wake at 8,000. Believe it or not, my weather radar has a better 360 display than yours and I was vectoring the last 60 departures when you were in the terminal.
Feel free to declare and RA across 50 miles. I'm sure that's easy to explain.
genot
Well-Known Member
I absolutely provide a service and I unquestionably wouldn't have this job if it wasn't for the flying public/professional pilots.
I could say the same thing about the Doctor that diagnosed me with the Flu and prescribed me Amoxicilin as a placebo back in college. "Um, Doc the Flu is a Virus right?" "Yes" "You prescribed an antibiotic what is only effective against bacteria by definition right?" "Yes". Why?" "Most patients demand a script regardless of if it hurts or helps." That Doctor was providing me a service and in her mindset was doing me a favor by writing the script for Amoxicillin that would at best do nothing.
Your attitude reminds me of the last patient my wife had that I got to hear an earful about. All of 19 and his 18 year old pregnant baby's momma may have had a broken finger. She treated the finger as if it were broken and didn't run an Xray because Fetuses and Radiation are not a good combination. Said 19 year old went on a rampage due to the lack of Xray. In your ideal world the fetus gets a massive dose of radiation and the treatment doesn't change. In my world someone maybe, just maybe, knows a little better.
In a similar vein I see weather come and I see weather go. I see it in the same pattern and process. I monitor it when you're 1,000 miles away. I've worked it before you were at your current employer. I was aware of its movement when you started your day. I've seen how every air frame I work has reacted. I don't know the particulars of weather in this place or the other, but if you want to assume you know my local weather as a transient better than I do, have a ball.
pilotmec
Well-Known Member
As far as I'm concerned the tapes are required investigative information but I worked with another ASI that didn't request any. Luckily he was to lazy to write a cert actions too. Guidance to him was asking other ASI's not the 8900.1.
My original answer was not meant to set anyone off, just an illustration to say always get the tapes, don't rely on FAA to get them.
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Defensive much? Last time a controller caused us to have an RA, he couldn't wait to get us off frequency. "Flagship, do a right 360 then on course to BUF", spin 'er around, and our TCAS starts indicating progressively worse (same altitude opposite direction, FL230). RA'd it down...
Just sayin', y'all aren't perfect either, but we are the ones that get snipped at for petty crap. We were following a Delta jet into DTW for the 27s, but for some reason, that wasn't good enough, we had to fly a right downwind and they had to fly a left downwind for 27L. Our downwind took us right into a thunderstorm, or it would have when we finally called "BS" and said we want the other downwind. Why'd they switch us?
Got a phone number from a controller who forgot they issued us an instruction. That was fun... Didn't go anywhere because they were wrong. But again, knee jerk, pilot screw up.
You guys have your ticket books and the automated tattle-tale crap. I'm not going to file reports every time controllers make mistakes. Such is life, the penalties only work one way.
I do have one funny one: going into some podunk airport, the tower controller cleared us to take off.... we all got a good laugh because we thought, and replied something to the affect of "uh, confirm cleared to land?"
Just sayin', y'all aren't perfect either, but we are the ones that get snipped at for petty crap. We were following a Delta jet into DTW for the 27s, but for some reason, that wasn't good enough, we had to fly a right downwind and they had to fly a left downwind for 27L. Our downwind took us right into a thunderstorm, or it would have when we finally called "BS" and said we want the other downwind. Why'd they switch us?
Got a phone number from a controller who forgot they issued us an instruction. That was fun... Didn't go anywhere because they were wrong. But again, knee jerk, pilot screw up.
You guys have your ticket books and the automated tattle-tale crap. I'm not going to file reports every time controllers make mistakes. Such is life, the penalties only work one way.
I do have one funny one: going into some podunk airport, the tower controller cleared us to take off.... we all got a good laugh because we thought, and replied something to the affect of "uh, confirm cleared to land?"
spades9048
Well-Known Member
We get snipped at for petty crap too. They can pull a tape and we'll make 50 flawless transmissions during a busy session but they'll ding us because we said "nine" instead of "niner" one time. I'm sorry you've had some bad experiences. No doubt, there are controllers with God complexes out there but there are pilots too but fortunately, on both sides, they're the minority.
Nobody wants to see you have a violation. Even the aholes don't want to see you have a violation. A violation means paperwork. Paperwork means instead of spending break watching TV you're spending break filling out paperwork. As immature as it is, I would much rather watch Ridiculousness watching some guy fall off his skateboard and smashing his nuts on a pole then having to listen to tapes and fill out paperwork.
Stinger
Well-Known Member
We can't really get dinged for phraseology anymore, at least not in a way that means anything. The most is that your supervisor will say you should be trying to be more standard when you talk.
And yep, Ridiculousness takes up a big portion of TV time during the breaks. Smithsonian Channel is good too for Aerial America and Air Disasters.
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
I like good controllers. I also do my best not to be an "unable" guy or a "I'm going this way guy". For real. Sometimes ya just gotta though.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
Observations:
(1) Nobody is perfect. Me especially.
(2) The next guy who makes fun of me for having 121.5 dialed up all the time is getting the QRH to the chops.
(3) I'm here to cooperate, graduate, fly safely, and not have to make any phone calls. Well, the other guy gets to make the phone call, but I would feel extremely bad/guilty if my behavior caused one.
(1) Nobody is perfect. Me especially.
(2) The next guy who makes fun of me for having 121.5 dialed up all the time is getting the QRH to the chops.
(3) I'm here to cooperate, graduate, fly safely, and not have to make any phone calls. Well, the other guy gets to make the phone call, but I would feel extremely bad/guilty if my behavior caused one.