This can't be legal-Free Flight Time

There were not any charges or compensation to anyone for the flight period. A guy was getting picked up to collect his airplane period.
I really do not see what the flight school owner is doing that can even remotely be considered illegal or necessitate him being called a scumbag.
 
Banner, I wouldn't use "scumbag" either, at least until I know more. The fact is, though, that FAA considers free flight time to be compensation. Somebody with less than a commercial ticket would be in violation if they did this flight as stated in post 1. I suspect the actual act of ferrying the owner to and fro his home base may be kosher, even without an ATCO certificate, but I'm no legal scholar. Allowing a private (non-commercial) pilot to do the flying definitely isn't. I'd love to know what their liability carrier has to say about this, too. :eek2:
 
Banner Express said:
There were not any charges or compensation to anyone for the flight period. A guy was getting picked up to collect his airplane period.
I really do not see what the flight school owner is doing that can even remotely be considered illegal or necessitate him being called a scumbag.
Click to expand...
The FAA considers flight time to be a form of compensation, also they are offering a service to customers and are using private pilots to do the flying. If an airline decided to offer free flights that doesn't get them out of needing the proper flight crew to operate.
 
tiredcfi said:
Are you kidding?? There are guys down at the FSDO that get a hard on for this sort of thing!
Click to expand...

Those guys at the FSDO are also usually overloaded with too many responsibilities and not enough people to handle them. Government is always plagued by not enough people to do the work. People refuse to fund government adequately, and then bitch that it isn't effective. Reference the DMV. The FAA is no different.
 
Banner Express said:
There were not any charges or compensation to anyone for the flight period. A guy was getting picked up to collect his airplane period.
I really do not see what the flight school owner is doing that can even remotely be considered illegal or necessitate him being called a scumbag.
Click to expand...

I'm not an attorney, so I'll leave the legal interpretation to the guy in this thread who is, but the owner is definitely a scumbag. He's offering a service to his customers and using pilots to provide that service. But he's not paying them for it! This would be like a car dealership offering you a personal driver and loaner car while your car is in the shop, but not paying the driver anything to cart your happy ass around town.
 
Eh, I dunno.....I'm usually pretty hardline on either pay to play, or flight time as pay but this one doesn't really rub me that way.

If they aren't specifically receiving any money for the actual service of transporting this person back to their home field then I say no harm no foul. This might actually save someone some money that is time building for a part 61 commercial. I think it's a win/win. Now, if I'm paying price A for an oil change at this place, but I'm paying price A + some for oil change and ride home then we start to have problems.

As far as the legal ramifications I'm not expert but I'm sure if it came down to it they could just deduct 1 cent from an account or something.
 
tlove482 said:
What happens when the private pilot dings a customer's plane or busts airspace?
Click to expand...

I would say the same thing that would happen if it was being rented.

How about this.....

I own a 172. My friend is a private pilot. My GF needs to get from PYM to MVY for a wedding and doesn't like boats. I can't do the flight because I'm working. If I call my friend and ask him to shoot my GF over to MVY in my plane am I a scumbag? Is this illegal according to "flight time as compensation"? What happens if he dings it up or busts BOS class B?

I don't see my scenario as being all that much different from the original. Again, if there is a fee involved for the customer to be brought home then I most certainly have beef.
 
hcaeborev said:
I would say the same thing that would happen if it was being rented.

How about this.....

I own a 172. My friend is a private pilot. My GF needs to get from PYM to MVY for a wedding and doesn't like boats. I can't do the flight because I'm working. If I call my friend and ask him to shoot my GF over to MVY in my plane am I a scumbag? Is this illegal according to "flight time as compensation"? What happens if he dings it up or busts BOS class B?

I don't see my scenario as being all that much different from the original. Again, if there is a fee involved for the customer to be brought home then I most certainly have beef.
Click to expand...

There is a big difference between a buddy of yours helping you out and a business offering a service to customers and using free labor.
 
hcaeborev said:
I would say the same thing that would happen if it was being rented.

How about this.....

I own a 172. My friend is a private pilot. My GF needs to get from PYM to MVY for a wedding and doesn't like boats. I can't do the flight because I'm working. If I call my friend and ask him to shoot my GF over to MVY in my plane am I a scumbag? Is this illegal according to "flight time as compensation"? What happens if he dings it up or busts BOS class B?

I don't see my scenario as being all that much different from the original. Again, if there is a fee involved for the customer to be brought home then I most certainly have beef.
Click to expand...

Well you're not a business owner that is trying to save money by having a private pilot fly the flight rather than paying one of your instructors to do it, thats where the scumbag comments are directed at.

I would argue that your example is different in that the flight is for personal reasons, whereas in the OP's example, the flight is not incidental to the business, and the company is making a gain from the flight. Another thing to point out is that 61.113 states "Compensation OR Hire".
 
hcaeborev said:
I would say the same thing that would happen if it was being rented.

How about this.....

I own a 172. My friend is a private pilot. My GF needs to get from PYM to MVY for a wedding and doesn't like boats. I can't do the flight because I'm working. If I call my friend and ask him to shoot my GF over to MVY in my plane am I a scumbag? Is this illegal according to "flight time as compensation"? What happens if he dings it up or busts BOS class B?

I don't see my scenario as being all that much different from the original. Again, if there is a fee involved for the customer to be brought home then I most certainly have beef.
Click to expand...

Actually chances are their insurance would not cover that flight because of it being a private pilot providing the service. Notice something. It still is a service to the customer and IMO they were paying for the service when they originally brought their plane in to be worked on.

Ultimately I am not a lawyer however we have an awesome JC guy that may help out. @PilotDefenseAttorney
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Actually, we've got two attorneys here, and one of them already replied in the thread and made it pretty clear that this is no beuno.
Click to expand...
True, but for some reason I was under the impression he wasn't an "aviation" attorney. Still a way better opinion than ours.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I'm not an attorney, so I'll leave the legal interpretation to the guy in this thread who is, but the owner is definitely a scumbag. He's offering a service to his customers and using pilots to provide that service. But he's not paying them for it! This would be like a car dealership offering you a personal driver and loaner car while your car is in the shop, but not paying the driver anything to cart your happy ass around town.
Click to expand...
Waitaminit.

First, anything I say on this forum is far from a legal opinion. Legal opinions require direct contact and a knowledge of all of the facts and nuances. Second, violation of rules is violation of rules, not necessarily a sign of moral reprehensibility. In the scholarly study of law, there is a distinction between things that are unlawful because the are are morally bad and things that are illegal just because a governing body thinks they shoul not be allowed. Compare a murderer with someone who exceeds the speed limit by 5 mph. Both are doing something illegal. Hopefully we can agree that only one is a bad person.

scumbag? For giving renter private pilots the opportunity to fly for free on a completely voluntary basis?
 
Hey just found out the last guy that took the flight school guy up on his offer was a 78 year old guy. Said he just likes to feel useful and enjoys helping out. I sure hope that we can put an end to this and shut this scum bag flight school owner down !
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
scumbag? For giving renter private pilots the opportunity to fly for free on a completely voluntary basis?
Click to expand...

I'm thinking they are taking advantage of their students. The customer shuttle is part of the service they provide. Should be a paid commercial pilot sitting up front. I'm willing to bet they have a CFI or two that would have liked to be flying and getting paid.
 
Banner Express said:
Hey just found out the last guy that took the flight school guy up on his offer was a 78 year old guy. Said he just likes to feel useful and enjoys helping out. I sure hope that we can put an end to this and shut this scum bag flight school owner down !
Click to expand...
That is likely a bit extreme. An adjustment does need to be made however.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top