Still At The Airport. FAR 117 legal?

CirrusMonkey

CirrusMonkey

No Real Usefulness
So we pushed back from the gate and couldn't get the #2 motor to start. We go back to the gate after a checklist and unsuccessful engine restart. Canceled.
There are no rooms "available", per scheduling so we are sitting here at the airport, waiting for them to call us back with accommodation details. Is this considered to be still on duty by the Feds?
 
The question I ask myself is if I were to hang around the airport waiting on maintenance to fix the plane and the flight ended up canceling, then I would be on duty up until they notified me of the cancellation. But I could see scheduling at a few places getting creative and saying you were released from duty after you blocked in from your gate return and that you were simply waiting for transportation to your hotel. I would argue and say that I was on duty right up until notified. Still need 8 hours behind the door of your hotel regardless.
 
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Sadly, it seems that the answer depends on how much your union has pressed the issue with your company. One line of belief is that your 10 hours of rest can begin after block-in. The other belief is that your rest period can't begin if you don't know what hotel you'll be using to get that rest (rest must be prospective), and that since you have to coordinate with the company to receive hotel information you are not yet "free of duty" and therefore your 10 hours begins when they tell you the name of the hotel you'll be staying at.

Ain't 117 grand?
 
adk said:
Sadly, it seems that the answer depends on how much your union has pressed the issue with your company. One line of belief is that your 10 hours of rest can begin after block-in. The other belief is that your rest period can't begin if you don't know what hotel you'll be using to get that rest (rest must be prospective), and that since you have to coordinate with the company to receive hotel information you are not yet "free of duty" and therefore your 10 hours begins when they tell you the name of the hotel you'll be staying at.

Ain't 117 grand?
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But.... But... But... 117 fixed EVERYTHING!!!!
 
adk said:
Sadly, it seems that the answer depends on how much your union has pressed the issue with your company. One line of belief is that your 10 hours of rest can begin after block-in. The other belief is that your rest period can't begin if you don't know what hotel you'll be using to get that rest (rest must be prospective), and that since you have to coordinate with the company to receive hotel information you are not yet "free of duty" and therefore your 10 hours begins when they tell you the name of the hotel you'll be staying at.

Ain't 117 grand?
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All well and good, but the 8-hour sleep opportunity cannot possibly start until you reach a place at which sleep is possible.
 
I knew we had to have 8 hours behind the hotel room door, no matter what. I just wasn't sure what still being at the airport, 4 hours after cancellation, meant to the Feds.
It cost the company a pretty penny though. 8 hours behind the door of a resort and spa was all they could find.
Thanks for the replies fellas.
 
CirrusMonkey said:
I knew we had to have 8 hours behind the hotel room door, no matter what. I just wasn't sure what still being at the airport, 4 hours after cancellation, meant to the Feds.
It cost the company a pretty penny though. 8 hours behind the door of a resort and spa was all they could find.
Thanks for the replies fellas.
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No problem.

Remember that there is a differentiation between flight duty (intention to move the aircraft), other kinds of duty (merely any time which you aren't at rest, which may actually be unlimited and continuous, like LCR), and rest, a period free of restraint or responsibility for ANY work from the certificate holder.
 
adk said:
Sadly, it seems that the answer depends on how much your union has pressed the issue with your company. One line of belief is that your 10 hours of rest can begin after block-in. The other belief is that your rest period can't begin if you don't know what hotel you'll be using to get that rest (rest must be prospective), and that since you have to coordinate with the company to receive hotel information you are not yet "free of duty" and therefore your 10 hours begins when they tell you the name of the hotel you'll be staying at.

Ain't 117 grand?
Click to expand...

How is the scenario being discussed worse for the pilots with 117?

I agree that there are pros and cons to 117 vs. the old rules, but if I had to pick one thing that it improved the most, I think I'd pick the elimination of the 8 hour layover where transportation and all other things were included in the rest time.

How on earth is this particular facet of 117 worse than the old stuff?

Or perhaps you're not saying it's worse than the old stuff, but rather, confusing and not clear enough. If that is the case, contact your Central Air Safety Chairman with your concerns as this is going to be discussed again at Safety Council in DC next week. There are a few airlines interpreting portions of 117 vastly differently than the intentions of what is written, and this is a 'hot topic.'
 
Nick said:
Or perhaps you're not saying it's worse than the old stuff, but rather, confusing and not clear enough. If that is the case, contact your Central Air Safety Chairman with your concerns as this is going to be discussed again at Safety Council in DC next week. There are a few airlines interpreting portions of 117 vastly differently than the intentions of what is written, and this is a 'hot topic.'
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This. Every time I think I understand something, a new interpretation is issued and we're back at square one. So again, ain't 117 grand?
 
117 good/bad who knows yet. BlueJuice factory interpretation is about as whacked crap I've ever seen. I was supposed to be in Barbados this morning at 0230. Due to one of those crazy JFK nights we didn't arrive till 630 this morning. As my Captain "discussed" 117 rules with dispatch and crew services when we returned to the gate for more fuel, all I could think was how is this crap legal. I was okay until we got about 2 hours into the flight then I hit the wall. My only thought now is well it is Barbados as compared to Buffalo.
 
Nick said:
How is the scenario being discussed worse for the pilots with 117?

I agree that there are pros and cons to 117 vs. the old rules, but if I had to pick one thing that it improved the most, I think I'd pick the elimination of the 8 hour layover where transportation and all other things were included in the rest time.

How on earth is this particular facet of 117 worse than the old stuff?

Or perhaps you're not saying it's worse than the old stuff, but rather, confusing and not clear enough. If that is the case, contact your Central Air Safety Chairman with your concerns as this is going to be discussed again at Safety Council in DC next week. There are a few airlines interpreting portions of 117 vastly differently than the intentions of what is written, and this is a 'hot topic.'
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Well said, Nick.
Sorry I missed your call the other day.
 
"Hello, scheduling? See you in 10 hours, suckas."

giphy.gif
 
CirrusMonkey said:
So we pushed back from the gate and couldn't get the #2 motor to start. We go back to the gate after a checklist and unsuccessful engine restart. Canceled.
There are no rooms "available", per scheduling so we are sitting here at the airport, waiting for them to call us back with accommodation details. Is this considered to be still on duty by the Feds?
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Its Legal ... but it could cost the Airline.
So after the leg blocks in you are off FDP, no further intention for you to fly.
You may not be re-assigned into Airport Standby (ASB) or Shortcall Reserve (SCR).
You are still on duty until they contact you with the Hotel, so you have not been released into rest.
Once released before you start the next next FDP, ASB or SCR, you will need 10 consecutive hours from release to report with 8 consecutive hours sleep opportunity (behind the door).

Any Duty Rigs may/or may not apply as the duty clock is still ticking, this of course depends upon your contract.
If you get paid for any sit time, that too may kick in, again depending on your contract.

My advice ... get something to eat ... read a magazine.
 
Soul Brotha' said:
117 good/bad who knows yet. BlueJuice factory interpretation is about as whacked crap I've ever seen. I was supposed to be in Barbados this morning at 0230. Due to one of those crazy JFK nights we didn't arrive till 630 this morning. As my Captain "discussed" 117 rules with dispatch and crew services when we returned to the gate for more fuel, all I could think was how is this crap legal. I was okay until we got about 2 hours into the flight then I hit the wall. My only thought now is well it is Barbados as compared to Buffalo.
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This is why I think it's complete bunk that my company seems to think I can't tell them straight up when it is and when it is not ok to extend. They wanna take this "fatigued or sick" stance with us. I can certainly look at a proposition and say "I'm fine now, but 2 hours from now, I may not be". My company does not wanna be told that. They want me to go until I cannot anymore, but sometimes it's not that simple. Of course, the FAA is like "that's not our problem."
 
falconvalley said:
This is why I think it's complete bunk that my company seems to think I can't tell them straight up when it is and when it is not ok to extend. They wanna take this "fatigued or sick" stance with us. I can certainly look at a proposition and say "I'm fine now, but 2 hours from now, I may not be". My company does not wanna be told that. They want me to go until I cannot anymore, but sometimes it's not that simple. Of course, the FAA is like "that's not our problem."
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It's pretty much the same everywhere near as I can tell. If you refuse an extension you are fatigued where I work.

(No, I'm not. I'm timed out. Stop it.)
 
Soul Brotha' said:
117 good/bad who knows yet. BlueJuice factory interpretation is about as whacked crap I've ever seen. I was supposed to be in Barbados this morning at 0230. Due to one of those crazy JFK nights we didn't arrive till 630 this morning. As my Captain "discussed" 117 rules with dispatch and crew services when we returned to the gate for more fuel, all I could think was how is this crap legal. I was okay until we got about 2 hours into the flight then I hit the wall. My only thought now is well it is Barbados as compared to Buffalo.
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Reserve rules are getting funky, too. Flew with a CA that did an 18 hour duty day. Why? Because it ended with a DH, and since it's not a FLIGHT DUTY, it's legal to go past the 16 hours. They've got ya on the hook indefinitely with DHs ending after the flights you did during the day. So, you could do MCO-SJU-STT-SJU-SDQ-SJU and then still be legal to DH back to MCO. Or you could start reserve at 5 am, get tagged at noon for a ferry from MCO-FLL that was SUPPOSED to get in at 2 pm and DH back to MCO. But MX doesn't have the part, they push the ferry back to 5 pm, putting you into FLL RIGHT before you hit the 16 hour mark. Oh, but it's your last day. Can't put you up in a hotel room for the night and extend you into your day off as that would be 5 hours at 190% just to DH home (on Spirit or Silver). So, since you're legal under 117, you DH home THAT NIGHT on Silver and drag your butt into your house close to midnight. Yeah.....ask me how I know all about how 117 saved the industry. All they had to do was say "No overnights less than 10 hours and 8 hours at the hotel behind the door" and not touch anything else. Instead, we've got this convoluted crap not even ALPA's broken iPhone app can do well much less schedulers who couldn't count to 16 and 8 before.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
It's pretty much the same everywhere near as I can tell. If you refuse an extension you are fatigued where I work.
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No, not at all the case everywhere.

I was in a meeting in DC specifically about this with the FAA two weeks ago.

There are a very small number of carriers taking the stance of no extension = fatigued or worse still, disciplinary action, but the consensus is not at all that. No extension simply means the crew is done flying for the day at the usual "Table B" amount of time.
 
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