Malaysian 777 Plane Crashes in Ukraine

MikeD said:
Europe isn't going to do anything about it, which is why the US shouldn't bother; as nothing will be effective if Europe doesn't even bother to participate.
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Part of the problem is that our hubris has trained the rest of the civilized world to do nothing unless we ask them to help us. So now they sit around and wait for us to do something, and then maybe, if it's politically expedient and doesn't cost them too much, they might consider taking part. Time to back off and leave Europe to take care of Europe. They'll learn to take care of themselves again once we allow them to do so and stop treating them like little children that need us to watch over them.
 
RDoug said:
This ↑.

"I looked in his eyes and saw his soul."
—— George W. Bush on what a great guy Vladimir Putin is.

And there are still people out there trying to rationalize this guy's foreign policy, including the invasion of Iraq. Amazing. Even worse, these people vote.
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You don't like w...we get it...move on
 
RDoug said:
This ↑.

"I looked in his eyes and saw his soul."
—— George W. Bush on what a great guy Vladimir Putin is.

And there are still people out there trying to rationalize this guy's foreign policy, including the invasion of Iraq. Amazing. Even worse, these people vote.
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Double post
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Part of the problem is that our hubris has trained the rest of the civilized world to do nothing unless we ask them to help us. So now they sit around and wait for us to do something, and then maybe, if it's politically expedient and doesn't cost them too much, they might consider taking part. Time to back off and leave Europe to take care of Europe. They'll learn to take care of themselves again once we allow them to do so and stop treating them like little children that need us to watch over them.
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Agree fully. Which is where my post a few pages back regarding Europe cleaning up their own backyard stems from. This one though, i think there's too much political problems with Europe going against Russia, what with the energy and material needs they depend on from them.
 
MikeD said:
Agree fully. Which is where my post a few pages back regarding Europe cleaning up their own backyard stems from. This one though, i think there's too much political problems with Europe going against Russia, what with the energy and material needs they depend on from them.
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Which is a great argument for renewable energy. Think of all the scumbag countries the civilized world could tell to go screw themselves if we didn't depend upon dead dinosaurs for energy.
 
MikeD said:
Europe isn't going to do anything about it, which is why the US shouldn't bother; as nothing will be effective if Europe doesn't even bother to participate.
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It would be a different story if NATO were meeting in Brussels this week to start talking about Article 5....but so far, nothing.
 
Champcar said:
Does Putin and Russian really have the economic means for an all out war? I doubt it.
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Do you mean all out with Ukraine? Yes it appears so. Obviously if everyone got drawn in along current allied lines, then no. But the advantage of a fiat money system is you don't really have to HAVE the resources, you just have to pay it back after the war if you win or at least keep your country. I think you should probably ask if they have the resources, because after your own population is widdled down, you attain self sufficiency in a hurry.
 
Yeeehaw, let's put on our foil caps and buy up some bit coins! WOOO! :) :sarcasm:

Sorry man, this is one of the few times I heard the term "fiat currency" and haven't had a one-sided debate about how the world is going to end in 2012.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You're talking about flying airplanes while we're talking about geopolitics, and you think we're missing the "big picture?" Unbelievable. :rolleyes:
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Uhhh, what? You think my post was about flying airplanes?

You know very little. Nothing but hot air and no experience.
 
MikeD said:
Europe isn't going to do anything about it, which is why the US shouldn't bother; as nothing will be effective if Europe doesn't even bother to participate.
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Precisely. As we specifically told the Europeans with the fall of the Iron Curtain, we spent vastly more winning the Cold War so it was their responsibility to cough up and win the peace. They didn't step up to the plate (again), and now they have their consequences.
 
bunk22 said:
You've seen war I take it, been in it?
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Suddenly, I feel like I am right now. ;)
Yes, several times. I get the impression you took my comment to be minimizing the realities of combat. Alternatively, perhaps that I was talking out my ass. Neither was my intent. (My intent, primarily, was to mess with @Boris Badenov .) But since you called me out, I am, perhaps, indicating that those realities of war are not simply acute ones and that we might do well to, er... think about them. By and large, the mind gets us into fights and the mind determines the outcome. In my experience, war fighters would generally rather not be called into combat. But they are because strategically, zeitgeists are manufactured to allow and encourage support for entry into wars. Zeitgeist and groupthink put soldiers and treasure at risk. Once put there, tactically, the state of mind of the combatants is probably the single greatest determinant of outcome. I don't think I am telling you anything you don't know. :)
 
After reading some articles, it looks like the US has very strongly hinted that we think Russia is at fault and for sure trained and supplied the separatists with the SAM. Russia insists a SAM has not crossed its borders and it is the US, not them, who can get Ukraine to lay down its weapons. Hmm...interesting to see how this plays out.

Also, the above video, if real, is interesting. I wonder if they're trying to hide it to make sure the investigators get a hold of it, or to make sure they don't. Hmm...
 
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Derg said:
Yeeehaw, let's put on our foil caps and buy up some bit coins! WOOO! :) :sarcasm:

Sorry man, this is one of the few times I heard the term "fiat currency" and haven't had a one-sided debate about how the world is going to end in 2012.
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BitCoins.....Hmm I wonder what the Fed thinks about that.....Let me run upstairs and ask the Boss Man...... ;-)
 
I'm disgusted that the world hasn't taken action to secure that site. What we have is a group of terrorists with guns, and the world can't outbully them? I know there's a lot at stake here politically, but what would honestly happen if the nations who lost people in this crash, put boots on the ground around the crash site? The wreckage is being vandalized. Black boxes are already "missing", and people's bodies are laying out in the open, decomposing. Their personal belongings are being stolen. Imagine being a family member knowing that not only did you lose a loved one, but that you may never be able to recover the body an/or their personal belongings? It's absolutely gutwrenching just thinking about it.

I'm the last person who would want to see people getting deployed, but this is one time where I want to see boots on the ground (doesn't have to be US). Get REAL soldiers out there and protect that site. What's going to happen? Is Putin going to start killing NATO soldiers that are trying to secure a crash site?
 
Mark815 said:
Is Putin going to start killing NATO soldiers that are trying to secure a crash site?
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Putin doesn't have to. His flunkies that aren't directly connected to Russia will do it for him, and then he'll just claim no involvement. "It was just the separatists, I have no control over them." Do you really want a bunch of dead people just to secure a crash site? Being angry about something doesn't justify military involvement and getting even more people killed.
 
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