A proposed sick-out?

Boyington said:
So, in this example, do the pilots get screwed or nailed?
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OH!!!
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ppragman said:
Well, why aren't we doing that? From everything I've read, the pay and workrules suck at the regional level so why isn't anyone performing "illegal" work stoppages.

I'd also like to question the constitutionality of the RLA in situations like this - why the hell couldn't an independent group of people freely associate?

I don't know - I don't have a dog in this fight other than that this monkeys with the set point for wages and work rules industry wide. I'm also very much not a lawyer - but it strikes me as fundamentally wrong that a group of people can't legally decide to not work. @JTrain - what is the constitutionality of the RLA? Has it even been tested?
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You can quit, that's what is legally allowed, very similar to any other regular job. Constitutionality doesn't really matter, in this country you aren't allowed to create illegal work stoppages, it's the law. In other countries it is legal in a sense that you have more rights to demonstrate, French pilots regularly stop work in sympathy of another group's strike and that's legal.

You put illegal in quotations, it's illegal even if you put it in uppercase bold clownscript. This isn't debatable unfortunately.

The reason work rules and pay suck at the regionals is because there's a line out the door to get in. In this case, today, wages remain low because the industry is shrinking, and will continue to shrink, and that cancels out the fact the line out the door is shorter than it's been in my memory. If your industry is shrinking you're going to feel the pain, that's the market and there is no way around it. "I have 20 jobs today, there will be 6 jobs next month, everyone hold up their hand who wants to work then come in my office and give me your best offer." Hopefully 14 other guys saw the writing on the wall and have something lined up.

The industry will shrink from some 20k pilots down to 6k (give or take a few 1,000). There may be a discussion warranted that pilots are leaving so fast a company could fail because of lack of pilots, but that has yet to happen, and if it did the rest of the industry could respond but probably not. Endeavor, for instance, could be shut down next month and the flying be covered by activating some of Delta reserves (not all) and putting a few bigger planes on with less frequency. Flights may cancel but the plane coming in on the next one will be 2.5x larger and Delta will still make more money than paying out pilots pre bankruptcy wages. XJT would be a little tougher, but at some point Delta would just hire a 121 supp to run people around.

I know you may be thinking, Jynxy there's no way Delta could make more money cancelling half the flights out of FNT and running a 717 in there. As far as Delta values it's flying by regional partners, yes they can. There's some arguments that accountants make stuff up to screw pilots (one I've heard in the past) however a business gets to decide themselves what our contract flying is worth. It's not worth much to them. If they are wrong and they lose more money than they think they'll re-evaluate and move on with their day... regional pilots will still be on their ass or in jail. You can totally say ass in here.

It's America, businesses do whatever they want because they have that legal protection and you are welcome to work there or quit. None of this matters to you obviously, and you've said as much, but some pilots are blissfully stupid, and I hope they read this and say, "Maybe I should ask a lawyer first before I get all Brody."
 
Derg said:
Think of mainline like a home owner and, say, Endeavor is a contractor.

The homeowner says, "We want a deck built".

The contractor says, "We'll bid to build it at $25,000"

The homeowner says, "Ok, uhhh, DOOWIT!"

The contractor find the employees to do the job and has a vested interested to do it for $25,000-X whereas the smaller the "X", the more the profit the contractor receives.

Construction costs have risen, trying to find workers is generally more difficult and if the workers just stop showing up to work, the contractor has no more leverage with the homeowner as he'll just cancel the project and put it back out for bidding.

More simply put, you don't show up to work on the first, you're not striking, you're just not showing up for work and the parent carrier doesn't care because they'll just 'fill in' with their own equipment or "up gauge". There's no strike so up gauging isn't 'scabbing'.

Again, people can do what they want, but at the end of the day, you're going to be out of a job and you have no legal protections whatsoever because, at best, it's abuse of sick leave and as much as the webmaster says all of his logs are anonymous, as a fellow webmaster, anonymity on the internet is pure fool's gold.

It doesn't exist.
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That's a pretty good way of looking at it too. Might be good to remember that the home owner (Delta) has four kids from 22-17 who want to build that deck but they don't want $8 an hour to do it. At some point, the dad and mom are gonna say to each other, "This deck is going to cost $35k now, this is stupid let's just pay Huey, Dwey, Louie, and Bubba the $35K they wanted to do the deck and call it a day. If they screw it up we can hold their dog's and kids we watch ransom."

In this example, Mom and Dad are Launchpad and Scrooge. ... Also, Derglas is Launchpad.
 
Derg said:
The wood was more like "cost of goods sold", the homeowner is the mainline carrier and the contractor is the regional. I'm absolutely all for bringing the cash and prizes up to an more professional level, however, if you don't approach it correctly and legally, you're just going to screw yourself.
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Well, regional managers/owners are the contractors.

Pilots are the necessary ingredient (in addition to other labor) that allows the deck to be constructed.

No wood, no deck.

I just liked my #giggity reference. But, since you not playing, fine then.
 
ppragman said:
Well, why aren't we doing that? From everything I've read, the pay and workrules suck at the regional level so why isn't anyone performing "illegal" work stoppages.

I'd also like to question the constitutionality of the RLA in situations like this - why the hell couldn't an independent group of people freely associate?

I don't know - I don't have a dog in this fight other than that this monkeys with the set point for wages and work rules industry wide. I'm also very much not a lawyer - but it strikes me as fundamentally wrong that a group of people can't legally decide to not work. @JTrain - what is the constitutionality of the RLA? Has it even been tested?
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Yes, by Regan.
 
Derg said:
Think of mainline like a home owner and, say, Endeavor is a contractor.

The homeowner says, "We want a deck built".

The contractor says, "We'll bid to build it at $25,000"

The homeowner says, "Ok, uhhh, DOOWIT!"

The contractor find the employees to do the job and has a vested interested to do it for $25,000-X whereas the smaller the "X", the more the profit the contractor receives.

Construction costs have risen, trying to find workers is generally more difficult and if the workers just stop showing up to work, the contractor has no more leverage with the homeowner as he'll just cancel the project and put it back out for bidding.

More simply put, you don't show up to work on the first, you're not striking, you're just not showing up for work and the parent carrier doesn't care because they'll just 'fill in' with their own equipment or "up gauge". There's no strike so up gauging isn't 'scabbing'.

Again, people can do what they want, but at the end of the day, you're going to be out of a job and you have no legal protections whatsoever because, at best, it's abuse of sick leave and as much as the webmaster says all of his logs are anonymous, as a fellow webmaster, anonymity on the internet is pure fool's gold.

It doesn't exist.
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Technically, you're right, no legal form of strike. Morally however, I disagree. I'm not saying I agree with the quasi-strike, but damn, IMO, it puts the mainline guys in a moral predicament if you ask me. And, I hate the RLA.
 
mshunter said:
Technically, you're right, no legal form of strike. Morally however, I disagree. I'm not saying I agree with the quasi-strike, but damn, IMO, it puts the mainline guys in a moral predicament if you ask me. And, I hate the RLA.
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There's no moral predicament. An anonymous guy on the Internet commands "don't go to work on the first" and I'm supposed to do.... What?

It's not even a strike.
 
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