Malaysian 777 Plane Crashes in Ukraine

BobDDuck said:
Not at all what I said.

Joe said it feel strange to be walking around in uniform after a plane crash. I said it's even more strange to be walking around in uniform after a plane crash when it was the same type that you fly and happened just a few hundred miles away from where you are walking around. I was referencing the morning that CMR went off the end of the runway in Lexington.
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I was pickin up what you were puttin down.
 
MikeD said:
I can't think of a political or military reason to intentionally and knowingly take down a civilian airliner, much less take any hostile action against Malaysia by the parties involved.
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There could be a military motive if the Ukrainian government was behind it, if they felt they could place the blame on the rebels and if they felt that the aftermath would either reduce or halt the Russian government's willingness to continue to arm the rebels or perhaps even international peacekeepers assistance in putting down the rebellion. However, that doesn't seem likely in my opinion but it is a valid (if amoral) military reason.

I'm pretty sure the Ukrainians would have to know we have IR satellites so they would have had to sneak the missile system deeply in rebel controlled territory, fire the missile and not get caught doing it. So seems unlikely.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
That would be a valid argument if they were only killing members of Hamas. But they're not. They're killing civilians by the hundreds.
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Well, I'm kind of to the point know where I don't care any more if civilians get mixed in the fray. Like I said, with us or against us. Pick a side, and suffer the consequences.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
There could be a military motive if the Ukrainian government was behind it, if they felt they could place the blame on the rebels and if they felt that the aftermath would either reduce or halt the Russian government's willingness to continue to arm the rebels or perhaps even international peacekeepers assistance in putting down the rebellion. However, that doesn't seem likely in my opinion but it is a valid (if amoral) military reason.

I'm pretty sure the Ukrainians would have to know we have IR satellites so they would have had to sneak the missile system deeply in rebel controlled territory, fire the missile and not get caught doing it. So seems unlikely.
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I agree that ukraine may have potential motive to try and place blame on Russia; but boy howdy if it were ever to come out that this is how they went about doing it? Wow.
 
Well, of course, no one knows. No one here, anyway. Now if you axed me what I think is most likely? I think it most likely that some local yokels got their hands on an SA-17 battery and started lighting off at whatever was handy. How they got their hands on it? No idea. Whether or not someone from, eh, east of there taught them how to use it? No idea. Maybe even someone from the east was wearing some pajamas with unit insignia removed and hit the big red button. Impossible to say.

But on balance, it certainly looks like someone who doesn't like the Ukranian government very much lit the candle, and now everyone is scrambling for cover, making counter-accusations, etc.

That's what seems most likely, to me.

But that's worth about what you paid for it. Whatever the case, it's a sad thing. And, in the immortal words of Tommy Lee in No Country for Old Men: "If it's not a mess, it'll do till the mess gets here".
 
A lot of the posts in this thread remind me of people talking about their pets, "my dog thinks this" or "my cat thinks this is funny". I highly doubt anyone here has a clear picture of what happened, and it is a tragedy. How about discussing the incident utilizing the info available without injecting your personal opinions. This thread reminds me of how much I enjoy this site and how I'm disappointed sometimes.
 
A Life Aloft said:
Alex Jones!!! Jeeeesusss H Keeeerist! Really?

Gah, help me.

And where do you suppose that the pro-Russian separatists get their training, support, supplies, direction, funding, equipment and arms from?

And where do you think all the lies, b.s. and massive propaganda campaign about what has been going on in the Ukraine comes from and has since day one? I'll give you a hint. It rides a horse.

And who has the flight and data recorders? Moscow. And who has complete physical control of the crash site/area and the wreckage? The pro Russian separatists. Good luck with that.
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To be fair, the US has a very long history of facilitating regime change... I don't honestly know enough about what happened in the Ukraine some months back to have an opinion on that but it isn't exactly an unfounded claim.
 
To think that the US wasn't deeply involved in pretty much every revolution in the last century is ludicrous naivete. To think that there was no other reason for said revolutions is, well, whatever is slightly worse.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Such Zionist BS. For decades, the international norm has been "proportional response." If someone attacks our embassy, we don't level their entire country. Why? Because it's not "proportional." But none of that matters with Israel. The Palestinians can kill a single person, and we turn a blind eye as Israel rains down rocket after rocket on them, killing hundreds of Palestinian civilians, including numerous children.

I normally wouldn't get dragged into a political debate in a thread about a crash, but this pro-Israel crap needs a response. You shouldn't be able to kill hundreds of civilians and get cheered on for it by what is supposed to be the greatest democracy in the world.
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I'm speechless @ATN_Pilot I had no idea you were like this. My respect level for you just increased. Very well said, good post.

fast89pony said:
Are you really backing Hamas?? They hide their rockets in schools and hospitals! They launch rockets during a ceasefire that both they and Israel agreed to. Israel didn't launch one during that time. They where caught digging tunnels under the border to commit mass murder in Israel. Is Israel supposed to just stand by while this continues and not protect their people? If Cuba launched rockets at us on a daily basis..well it wouldn't be there for very long.
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Where did he say anything about backing Hamas? He is stating the numbers and they are what they are. All your talk of rockets and terror, you've had 1 Israel dead so far in the recent conflict. In exchange, the IDF has obliterated 250+ people and a majority of them were civilians and a scary amount were women and children. The boys on the beach was just pure murder. There was no Hamas guy in a banana hammock at the beach. I hear this tunnels thing as well. So, how many Israelis have died? 0. "Protect their people" sure you can protect them. But when you build what the rest of the world (in some cases, even the USA!) defines as "illegal settlements" on lands that are questionable, then yeah you may make enemies. If Cuba launched rockets at us? Why? They have no reason to. We haven't invaded Cuba (well not recently anyway). We haven't built illegal settlements in Cuba. If Cuba was launching rockets, I'd push for an individual hunt-down of those involved. Are they putting human shields on the roof? Time for a building sweep, floor by floor, picking ONLY the terrorists. What's the point of blowing the building to kill a few terrorists when you kill MANY more civilian women and children? The answer is easy, to them, one Israeli life is avenged with 200 Palestinians. Period. The last invasion (both cause and effect) killed about 50-60 Israelis and over 1200 Palestinians. The kill ratio is far higher with IDF and they don't care. It's far easier for them to lob missiles and use Apaches and tanks to carry out their Zionist schemes and expand settlements with my tax money and you know what? I'm not okay with that. I don't think God gave you ANY land. The land is there before humans were.

Besides the Cuba thing isn't even an accurate comparison. It would be more accurate to say if tomorrow the Native Indians started attacking us. And yes they already live in what we call the continental USA. The Israeli situation is similar. Look up zionism expansion. I'm surprised any sane individual would actually support a movement like that.

Also, there's Israel plus the USA, and then there's the rest of the world who condemn what they do. Do you think Britain, France, Netherlands, Germany, China, Japan, Australia are all "crazy"? Every time they issue an action or item it is always vetoed by solely one member: the USA. Isn't it time to really sit down and say if every single country (except the USA) is saying something is wrong then maybe indeed something is wrong? Enough of the vetoes.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I think it most likely that some local yokels got their hands on an SA-17 battery and started lighting off at whatever was handy. How they got their hands on it? No idea. Whether or not someone from, eh, east of there taught them how to use it? No idea. Maybe even someone from the east was wearing some pajamas with unit insignia removed and hit the big red button. Impossible to say.
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The SA17 is not a point and shoot weapon system. To be able to acquire, track and launch on a specific target takes a pretty good knowledge base. Could "local yokels" be trained to do so? Sure. But this is not a case of the local militia simply capturing a BUK3, pointing it skyward and pulling the trigger once they got tone.
 
ryanmickG said:
Great outlook on it!

You can't be serious, right? It's a joke, right?
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Nope. I'm sick of hearing about "innocent civilians." Either fight a war, where innocent people will die, because war is ugly, or STFU about your woes.

Look, when was the last time you heard about peace in that part of the world. It hasn't happened in my lifetime. And I'm no kid. What has all this fighting done, for anyone over there? It's like listening to my kids argue over who gets to wipe the mirror down. I'm frankly tired of it. I don't want to hear about it until it's resolved. Color me jaded.
 
Well, I mean, the Ukraine has been operating the SA-17 for literally decades. It doesn't strike me as totally impossible that a few vets got rustled up to make the damned thing work, then started shooting at whatever looked hostile (which would be pretty much anything in the air). I mean, I don't know, but I don't think it's entirely fair, at this point, to just lose our poop entirely and say "Vlad did it!". And this is from someone who is NOT a Vlad fan in any way, shape, or form.
 
desertdog71 said:
I think if Mexico or Canada was lobbing rockets across the border the US would show a lot less restraint.
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Ah, no. The US isn't illegally expanding their housing onto Canada or Mexico. Also, the US doesn't think the 50 states are "God-given" land and doesn't call itself a "Christian state."
 
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