Ameriflight

Maurus said:
Actually Allegiant isn't too far off from most LCCs and has the benefit of not actually being an airline but a travel company. That helps gives it a bit more stability. The pay actually isn't that bad considering their QOL in base is really good. Day trips allowing you to be home most nights and only 11 days off is still better than 12 days off with 4-day trips. That is why people have gone and stayed there. Obviously they know they can do better and voted a union in so they are definitely moving in the right direction. Technically I am not sure Major was the right word but they are definitely not a regional. They are a LCC.

You seem to have ignored my statements in the past about AMF's pilot group footprint. It is very small. Smaller still are the amount of people that actually want to go 121. The pilot group is somewhere around the 165 pilot mark. Considering how long it takes to build time at AMF maybe only half of the group is actually qualified for a major. Add in the fact that some in that group aren't even looking at the majors. The amount of people at AMF who are qualified and want to go to a major is extremely small when comparing them to the regionals. So duh, you wont find many getting out. Chances are the the rate they are escaping to the LCCs and such is actually a good rate of hiring considering the size of the group.

Also don't forget that most of the people getting hired at the big 3 had been at their regional for 8+ years. The environment at AMF is hard to handle for that long and people leave as a result.

The fact actually is that AMFers have been hired to United/Continental within the last decade. I had a United guy in the jumpseat that actually made the jump. Talked to Hawaiian guys that worked at AMF as well. Your problem is that you are stuck outside of the main airline system so you don't find these people.
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People have gone and Stayed at Allegiant because they can't get hired anywhere else. I have 2 friends there and they among most, hate it. Ask an Allegiant FLL guy how that is going, ask a new hire how long he has been TDY. Take a look at 4th year 757 pay versus 757 pay at other airlines the first year. Sure, there are those that love it, just like there are those that love nothing more than to fly a Beech 99, doing 16 hour duty days for 39k a year for the rest of their life.

Also, you're talking about a literal different era in aviation. The fact is that anyone who got hired back in the day was from the commuter days. Those days are gone, they don't exist. It is funny to hear an argument to AMF going 121 when you went to a regional from AMF. And I applaud you for it, that isn't a knock at all, but it lends a bit to my argument. Your point about guys going to the big 3 being at their regional 8+ years. There are Check Airmen, senior captions at AMF who have been there that long or longer, who don't get a peep out of any major, why is that? I have a friend who was flying a Citation XLS+ that got hired onto SWA. So is my theory of the majors looking for jet time, part 25 aircraft time, advanced cockpit time, multi-crew time invalid? Quite the opposite.

Your comment to maybe half of the AMF guys qualified for a major, how are they qualified? So they can check the bare minimum hourly requirements on the application? Big deal, so can a large percentage of the professional aviation population. I disagree with you that a small percentage of people want to go to a 121 major from AMF. There are those who don't wanna go, but they had their apps in, I guarantee you that. However, the majority of those at AMF would take a job offer from a major, whether they wanted to go 121 or not.
 
Inverted said:
People have gone and Stayed at Allegiant because they can't get hired anywhere else. I have 2 friends there and they among most, hate it. Ask an Allegiant FLL guy how that is going, ask a new hire how long he has been TDY. Take a look at 4th year 757 pay versus 757 pay at other airlines the first year. Sure, there are those that love it, just like there are those that love nothing more than to fly a Beech 99, doing 16 hour duty days for 39k a year for the rest of their life.

Also, you're talking about a literal different era in aviation. The fact is that anyone who got hired back in the day was from the commuter days. Those days are gone, they don't exist. It is funny to hear an argument to AMF going 121 when you went to a regional from AMF. And I applaud you for it, that isn't a knock at all, but it lends a bit to my argument. Your point about guys going to the big 3 being at their regional 8+ years. There are Check Airmen, senior captions at AMF who have been there that long or longer, who don't get a peep out of any major, why is that? I have a friend who was flying a Citation XLS+ that got hired onto SWA. So is my theory of the majors looking for jet time, part 25 aircraft time, advanced cockpit time, multi-crew time invalid? Quite the opposite.

Your comment to maybe half of the AMF guys qualified for a major, how are they qualified? So they can check the bare minimum hourly requirements on the application? Big deal, so can a large percentage of the professional aviation population. I disagree with you that a small percentage of people want to go to a 121 major from AMF. There are those who don't wanna go, but they had their apps in, I guarantee you that. However, the majority of those at AMF would take a job offer from a major, whether they wanted to go 121 or not.
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Ok you are missing the point completely. AMF is stupid small. The regionals are stupid big. So duh, people will get hired from the regionals at a seemingly faster rate. AMF pilots will have large holes in between each time a person is hired from AMF. AMF has 165 pilots. XJT alone has nearly 5000. We are barely sending anyone to the majors and we have 5000 total pilots. Expecting AMFers to go to the majors in a steady flow is ludicrous because their size is so small and the number of qualified pilots at AMF makes them the quintessential needle in a haystack. That is all I am saying.

Also you mentioned "Nobody has gone solely from AMF to any major that matters in a decade and that is a fact". That covers 2004-2014. Yes, United, Continental, and Southwest have had a history of hiring some AMFers directly to their ranks in that time frame. As have other major airlines. The size of the pilot group just happens to make that a rarer occurrence and the faster attrition rates now cause people to leave well before they become competitive making the likelihood of someone getting hired directly from AMF even smaller.

Personally I went to a regional because my QOL tanked and I had to fly one of AMF's most dangerous routes just to have a decent QOL. I can't tell you how many times I had to stand up in the plane due to fatigue. I don't take what you said about that as a knock at all. That decision probably saved my life.

Also Qualified = Competitive times. I'm not talking 1500TT with 1000 hours in turbine aircraft. Most majors require 4000TT or more. If guys are coming to AMF like I did at 1500TT and only got 450-500 hours a year it would take 5 years to hit 4000TT. It would take 7+ years to get in the more likely range of 5000-6000 hours for getting hired. Jetblue is hiring guys around the 5000TT mark right now I do believe. You know how many guys have stuck around AMF for 7+ years? Not many at all. Maybe 30? That is a small group of guys trying to get into a major. No wonder why they rarely get hired. There is a massive pool of competitive pilots in the US and the AMFers can easily be overlooked due to the lack of presence.
 
Inverted said:
Uhh do a little research on DPJ. It is the GLA of 135 charter...
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Of course I know that. I was CVG based at AMF at one point. There were a few pilots that left for DPJ that didn't even last a year there.

All of @Maurus points are pretty valid. Except that once you've crossed the five year mark and/or in a decent base AMF really isn't that bad. You still never hear a peep out of those 10+ year BFI guys. Not all people stay because they can't go anywhere else. Those guys up there are some darn good pilots with great personalities. Some folks stay because some of those runs are easy and they like being home/there spouse likes them being home every night.

AMF is large enough to be one of the only 135 carriers with an ATP program. They just have to put work in with the FAA/spend money to make it happen.
 
Maurus said:
Ok you are missing the point completely. AMF is stupid small. The regionals are stupid big. So duh, people will get hired from the regionals at a seemingly faster rate. AMF pilots will have large holes in between each time a person is hired from AMF. AMF has 165 pilots. XJT alone has nearly 5000. We are barely sending anyone to the majors and we have 5000 total pilots. Expecting AMFers to go to the majors in a steady flow is ludicrous because their size is so small and the number of qualified pilots at AMF makes them the quintessential needle in a haystack. That is all I am saying.

Also you mentioned "Nobody has gone solely from AMF to any major that matters in a decade and that is a fact". That covers 2004-2014. Yes, United, Continental, and Southwest have had a history of hiring some AMFers directly to their ranks in that time frame. As have other major airlines. The size of the pilot group just happens to make that a rarer occurrence and the faster attrition rates now cause people to leave well before they become competitive making the likelihood of someone getting hired directly from AMF even smaller.

Personally I went to a regional because my QOL tanked and I had to fly one of AMF's most dangerous routes just to have a decent QOL. I can't tell you how many times I had to stand up in the plane due to fatigue. I don't take what you said about that as a knock at all. That decision probably saved my life.

Also Qualified = Competitive times. I'm not talking 1500TT with 1000 hours in turbine aircraft. Most majors require 4000TT or more. If guys are coming to AMF like I did at 1500TT and only got 450-500 hours a year it would take 5 years to hit 4000TT. It would take 7+ years to get in the more likely range of 5000-6000 hours for getting hired. Jetblue is hiring guys around the 5000TT mark right now I do believe. You know how many guys have stuck around AMF for 7+ years? Not many at all. Maybe 30? That is a small group of guys trying to get into a major. No wonder why they rarely get hired. There is a massive pool of competitive pilots in the US and the AMFers can easily be overlooked due to the lack of presence.
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I agree with most things that you said. However, AMF cannot have its cake and eat it too with the idea that the pilot group is small so barely anyone goes to the majors, AND that AMF is a place to circumvent the regionals and go to a major. You can't have it both ways. Either is a place to go, to eventually get picked up by a major or it isn't, sounds like you've proven my point. I know somebody that got picked up by American with 3,400 hours, and another went to SWA with over 10k hours. All the different airlines have different competitive qualifications. It isn't solely based on hours, in fact it has more to do with how many hand written letters you can get from pilots and management from the airline in which you are applying. At least that's how it feels.

AMFers don't get looked over simply because it's some small pilot group. Both of the people I mentioned above were hired out of part 91 flight departments. AMF gets snatched up and is not looked over at all in the regionals, and 135 charter side. That's the area in which AMF should focus its future pilot career efforts at. They get overlooked at the majors because there's a never ending 121 pilot factory that keeps spitting perfectly qualified applicants, called the regionals. Then take the private jet sector. You're talking thousands of well qualified applicants here. AMF is overlooked for that very reason. You can add lack of total time as one of the reasons sure, but there are other reasons too.
 
KLB said:
Of course I know that. I was CVG based at AMF at one point. There were a few pilots that left for DPJ that didn't even last a year there.

All of @Maurus points are pretty valid. Except that once you've crossed the five year mark and/or in a decent base AMF really isn't that bad. You still never hear a peep out of those 10+ year BFI guys. Not all people stay because they can't go anywhere else. Those guys up there are some darn good pilots with great personalities. Some folks stay because some of those runs are easy and they like being home/there spouse likes them being home every night.

AMF is large enough to be one of the only 135 carriers with an ATP program. They just have to put work in with the FAA/spend money to make it happen.
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The turnover finally hit BFI, five have quit in three months. And I still think pumping up the "AMF to a major" near-rumor is disingenuous to those considering working here. Has it happened? Yeah. Will it happen to you if you come here? Almost certainly not. The lack of networking is an issue, but so are the lack of jets, glass, first officers, passengers, and part 121.
 
Polymox said:
The turnover finally hit BFI, five have quit in three months. And I still think pumping up the "AMF to a major" near-rumor is disingenuous to those considering working here. Has it happened? Yeah. Will it happen to you if you come here? Almost certainly not. The lack of networking is an issue, but so are the lack of jets, glass, first officers, passengers, and part 121.
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I don't have the 121 time yet. But so far ...jet, glass, fms, and etc really isn't the big deal that people make it out to be. That is some super duper experience that has left BFI. The industry is turning where I can see why people are leaving. There's money to be made out here. That's why I left. :)
 
KLB said:
I don't have the 121 time yet. But so far ...jet, glass, fms, and etc really isn't the big deal that people make it out to be.
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It isn't that it is a big deal, I think it is more of something that is used for the assumption that an applicant would have a better chance of passing an initial, and getting through training if he/she was already familiar with a modern cockpit. It is like companies requiring an ATP, not hiring guys that don't have an ATP. You can tack on an ATP to a type rating, it makes zero difference in the checkride on an initial yet companies aren't (always) willing to bet on it. Hell the opposite is true at AMF. When furloughed 121 guys were coming in and trying to fly a PA31, it is a huge change to fly a modern airplane versus an old steam gauge twin, and vise versa.

In all seriousness KLB, your fleet doesn't have any glass does it? Are the -400s Nextant conversions? I am not super familiar with the vintage of the fleets your company has.
 
Inverted said:
It isn't that it is a big deal, I think it is more of something that is used for the assumption that an applicant would have a better chance of passing an initial, and getting through training if he/she was already familiar with a modern cockpit.
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That is the thing I will never understand. The legacies are not hiring into the most advanced aircraft out there. They hire into MD-80 series or similar in age aircraft. That means a lot of steam gauges and terrible autopilots. People that have been around glass for most of their career typically require more sim sessions in these old aircraft. Obviously they can get through the checkride eventually, but they cost the company more money in the process.

Ultimately glass is not hard. This is especially true concerning the next generation of pilots coming up have had more tech sitting in their pockets than what you find in most avionics suites at the majors. I only had to be told once how to use a vast majority of the FMS in the EMB-145. The only part that took time to know were the "gotchas" created from the bad programming by Honeywell (Seriously, why does it need to drop an entire flight plan when changing runways on some departures?). The only thing that actually made the FMS hard for some people in my class was the fact that every instructor had a slightly different way of doing things and it caused confusion.
 
z987k said:
The Garmin suites blow everything at an airline out of the water.
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I am not sure I am ready to agree with that.
787:
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The G1000 is a toy compared to any part 25 modern flight deck. Now the 3000, that is a sweet suite.
 
Inverted said:
I am not sure I am ready to agree with that.
787:

The G1000 is a toy compared to any part 25 modern flight deck. Now the 3000, that is a sweet suite.
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How many new hires get hired into a 787? Most at United end up on the 737, 757, 319, and maybe the 767. Not exactly the most advanced aircraft out there. Most airliners have 10+ year old tech. Many have 30+ year old tech.

People will have a tougher time going from a E-175 flight deck to a MD-80/757 flight deck than the other way around.
 
Maurus said:
How many new hires get hired into a 787? Most at United end up on the 737, 757, 319, and maybe the 767. Not exactly the most advanced aircraft out there. Most airliners have 10+ year old tech. Many have 30+ year old tech.

People will have a tougher time going from a E-175 flight deck to a MD-80/757 flight deck than the other way around.
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I know of one who just completed class actually.

10+ is way newer than what the majority of the freight fleet has, hell so is 30. I agree and as I said before the technology shift can go both ways, learning on glass, or being familiar with glass will create the same issues when going backwards.
 
Does it really matter one way or another? Anyone who thinks they can do 3 years or less at AMF and go to a major/LCC (without significant other time flying 121) is crazy. Only a very few seem to be doing so recently and they are generally ones that would be in the "lifer" category.

Honestly, if you want to fly 121, Ameriflight isn't doing you any good.
 
Inverted said:
I am not sure I am ready to agree with that.
787:
1940205.jpg



The G1000 is a toy compared to any part 25 modern flight deck. Now the 3000, that is a sweet suite.
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Maybe with the exception of the 787 or some of the big buses. All of the rjs and all of the domestic stuff is ancient. No syn terrain, few are waas capable. A terrible moving map. No charts for taxi.
 
z987k said:
Maybe with the exception of the 787 or some of the big buses. All of the rjs and all of the domestic stuff is ancient. No syn terrain, few are waas capable. A terrible moving map. No charts for taxi.
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Even NAC is WAAS capable in the 737-200s!
 
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