NTSB Press Release Asiana 214

[statusseeker1]

That video is repulsive. I recommend taking non-Asian carriers to and from Asia, kids. While there take a bus or a train. The dope in the right seat was a check airman for gods sake. AND they had a FO in the jumpseat watching. Unreal.

 

[Vector4Food]

Their reaction

"No More visual Approaches"

demonstrates to me a complete and horrible negligence on behalf of the company.

What should be done is immediate and extensive training.

Stupid stupid stupid....

I'll never fly them.

 

[Baronman]

I think the accident has a lot of human factors to look at. A guy new to the plane in the left seat getting IOE, the guy in the right seat was giving his first instruction from the right seat...combined, over 20,000 hrs at the controls that day.

After the fact it's all just so clear right? It could never happen to me...I'm not saying it's not their fault, but bad stuff happens to decent pilots.

Ask the Southwest pilots who almost took 150 people off a cliff near Branson...Or the Continental crew that totaled a 737 in Denver...The list goes on and on.

I know we're all good cowboys here in the States that know how to take the bull by the horns while all those dumb foreigners are slaves to the automation right?? That's the narrative we like here...

 

[Joshwa]

That video is pretty bloody scary.

A simple approach gate would have solved this one - 500' or 1000', they were shockingly unstable at both. Those pitch attitudes should surely have been ringing alarm bells too?

 

[Bumblebee]

I think the accident has a lot of human factors to look at. A guy new to the plane in the left seat getting IOE, the guy in the right seat was giving his first instruction from the right seat...combined, over 20,000 hrs at the controls that day.

After the fact it's all just so clear right? It could never happen to me...I'm not saying it's not their fault, but bad stuff happens to decent pilots.

Ask the Southwest pilots who almost took 150 people off a cliff near Branson...Or the Continental crew that totaled a 737 in Denver...The list goes on and on.

I know we're all good cowboys here in the States that know how to take the bull by the horns while all those dumb foreigners are slaves to the automation right?? That's the narrative we like here...

uh, no that's not the narrative. The narrative is that these airlines (they happen to be Asian) send pilots to the US where many of them barely make it through training and have a pretty serious hand-holding going on the whole time then go into heavy metal pretty quickly. This is not so much the pilots fault as an entire training culture that is subpar. Although, I don't get how you don't take your own time to try to get deeper into understanding due to the fact that you're in a huge aluminum can screaming around at death speed.

 

[francis03]

uh, no that's not the narrative. The narrative is that these airlines (they happen to be Asian) send pilots to the US where many of them barely make it through training and have a pretty serious hand-holding going on the whole time then go into heavy metal pretty quickly. This is not so much the pilots fault as an entire training culture that is subpar. Although, I don't get how you don't take your own time to try to get deeper into understanding due to the fact that you're in a huge aluminum can screaming around at death speed.

I got my instrument rating and currently rent at a school that does a lot of training for international students. I have heard so much horror stories these guys do while in training. The same guys that go back home and get put on a jet as soon as they receive their temporary commercial certificate. The best lesson I've learned at the school: Avoid flying Egypt Air, Asiana, China Airlines, etc….

 

[SpiceWeasel]

I got my instrument rating and currently rent at a school that does a lot of training for international students. I have heard so much horror stories these guys do while in training. The same guys that go back home and get put on a jet as soon as they receive their temporary commercial certificate. The best lesson I've learned at the school: Avoid flying Egypt Air, Asiana, China Airlines, etc….

American FAA certificated get to strap on jets with wet commercials as well.

 

[Polar742]

Mode confusion and not cross-checking or using basic CRM skills when assuming the other pilot made proper changes to the automation.

Happens to all of us for various reasons. Usually it starts with "what's it doing?"

If you don't think it's happened to you, you haven't paid attention. Luckily, most of these errors end up in ASAP reports and not NTSB reports.

Take this as a lesson for yourself, and not a reason to bash foreign pilots.

 

[Bumblebee]

not 121 any longer. Plus, we don't have an "ab initio" program that puts pressure to get them through the program and pressure on them do go faster than comfortable...unless it's ATP lol

American FAA certificated get to strap on jets with wet commercials as well.

 

[mshunter]

American FAA certificated get to strap on jets with wet commercials as well.

Show me just one airline flying a swept wing jet that will hire anyone with a wet commercial certificate. Hell, even look back 5-10-15 years and find one. When you do, then I'll buy your argument. Until then, it holds zero weight. The fact remains, they send guys over here, get them FAA certs, send them home, slap a type on them, and they are in the right seat at sub 500 hours, with many haveing barely made it through training.

 

[Nark]

I've flown with several dudes who had 300 hours hired at Chatauqua.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Show me just one airline flying a swept wing jet that will hire anyone with a wet commercial certificate. Hell, even look back 5-10-15 years and find one. When you do, then I'll buy your argument. Until then, it holds zero weight. The fact remains, they send guys over here, get them FAA certs, send them home, slap a type on them, and they are in the right seat at sub 500 hours, with many haveing barely made it through training.

I got hired.

 

[MikeD]

23. Clearer guidance is needed to resolve the concern among airport fire departments and individual firefighters that the potential risk of injuring airplane occupants while piercing aircraft structure with a skin-penetrating nozzle outweighs the potential benefit of an early and aggressive interior attack using this tool.

A proper tactical concern, however one that is fairly easy to mitigate when using the piercing nozzle on the HRET (High Reach Extendable Turret) by piercing through the top of the fuselage or as close to it as possible (close as possible, for aircraft like the 747, boom extension height becomes an issue), thus avoiding injury of passengers with the nozzle. Generally, on a horizontal pierce, you'd do it about 1 foot above the cabin windows in the area you can either see visual fire, or can see a heat bloom on the FLIR. This location is optimal to keep above the seat backs, but avoid piercing the overhead baggage bins on passenger aircraft. An area that is fully involved in fire visually or by FLIR heat, can reasonably be assumed to be non-survivable for life, with anyone in that immediate area having moved away from it, or perished.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

Here's the video: (without having to click on any links)

Not as hard to watch as the Colgan video, but hard nonetheless as you can see all the holes in the swiss cheese that they could have plugged with some basic airmanship.

Wow...

I've never understood trying to fly a visual approach with the autopilot on (without an ILS). To me it's much more work to use a vertical AP mode while looking outside than it is to just click it off and do some pilot stuff. Seen guys do it here in the US too.

I"ve never flown the 777 but in the full glass aircraft I have flown they cloud have easily setup an VNAV glide to take them to the runway. If you know what you are doing an autopilot can easily fly a visual approach. Even basic autopilot like the 727 has could easily be manually controlled to fly a visual approach.

These guys just completely mismanaged the cockpit and basically let the plane fly them. It did exactly what it was told to do by the flight crews. I thought it was comical the NTSB wants Boeing to add more automation to the aircraft to prevent this, trying to make it more like an airbus. Can an airbus pilot comment on the protections the airbus has. My basic undertanding is even the airbus would have done the same thing as it believe you are trying to land, it just won't let you stall it .

 

[mshunter]

I got hired.

What were your times and where?

 

[SteveC]

Mode confusion and not cross-checking or using basic CRM skills when assuming the other pilot made proper changes to the automation.

Happens to all of us for various reasons. Usually it starts with "what's it doing?"

If you don't think it's happened to you, you haven't paid attention. Luckily, most of these errors end up in ASAP reports and not NTSB reports.

Take this as a lesson for yourself, and not a reason to bash foreign pilots.

Anybody that reads these reports and only thinks "those idiots" instead of thinking "I can see how that happened" is doing it wrong.

 

[desertdog71]

I'm sure this happens fairly often. Not the end result but the chain of events.

 

[Baronman]

These guys just completely mismanaged the cockpit and basically let the plane fly them. It did exactly what it was told to do by the flight crews. I thought it was comical the NTSB wants Boeing to add more automation to the aircraft to prevent this, trying to make it more like an airbus. Can an airbus pilot comment on the protections the airbus has. My basic undertanding is even the airbus would have done the same thing as it believe you are trying to land, it just won't let you stall it .

The Airbus autothrust system would have been engaged and commanding a target speed. It wouldn't stay at idle as he tried to stretch the glide.

On approach you'd get an aural warning " Speed speed speed" triggered when pitch alone would be insufficient for a climb.

Finally the plane doesn't allow a stall and would go to " Alpha Floor" commanding max thrust once it computed a low energy state.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

What were your times and where?

Pinnacle Airlines, 2007. 406 TT. Basically, ERAU plus a few hours I could afford on my own.

I flew < 50 hours from time of acquiring CM/SEL until I got hired.

We had guys with 1/2 my time in my new hire class.

 

[toolow]