Too old to start pilot career? Need advice!

[tonyw]

The woman who posted here originally wanted answers, and I will stick with what I said. Know what you are getting into. You are doing to drop at least $50K to get all your ratings done, and when you do that, you will be eligible for a job that will pay you $15K if you're lucky as you build time. Then when you build time, you will likely go into a position that pays you $25K.

Now, if you can make that work, that's great! Just know what you're getting into so you're not that hypothetical me that nobody wants to fly with because he's so bitter.

As for asking what if, to me, that is pointless. Ain't nothing you can do about it now. Stop wondering about things you can't change.

Would my life have been different if I moved to San Diego right out of college instead of when I was 42? Yes. But I can't change that, so I'm not going to worry about it.

 

[NewYorkophile]

The woman who posted here originally wanted answers, and I will stick with what I said. Know what you are getting into. You are doing to drop at least $50K to get all your ratings done, and when you do that, you will be eligible for a job that will pay you $15K if you're lucky as you build time. Then when you build time, you will likely go into a position that pays you $25K.

Now, if you can make that work, that's great! Just know what you're getting into so you're not that hypothetical me that nobody wants to fly with because he's so bitter.

As for asking what if, to me, that is pointless. Ain't nothing you can do about it now. Stop wondering about things you can't change.

Would my life have been different if I moved to San Diego right out of college instead of when I was 42? Yes. But I can't change that, so I'm not going to worry about it.

Yeah, but your facts aren't right. If your first flying job is making $15k, you're doing it wrong. You could work 3 seasons of survey making $50k, then make more than $25k at almost any 135 outfit worth a damn, then hit a Regional and be making $40k 2nd year. If you bottom-feed the jobs, then yes, life will suck.

 

[SeanD]

I'll throw my two cents in here.....many professional careers require a few if even several years of paying dues, not making the money that you will down the road, paying back student loans, heaven forbid-living on a budget, living in a small apartment and knowing how to live within your means and sticking to that, etc. It won't kill you. It didn't kill any of us. We all managed, a lot of us quite well and we weren't scarred for life and didn't really miss out on much. In fact, looking back....some of the best times of my life were when I didn't have so many "things" to cope/deal with, be responsible for, and my life was far less complicated and far more simple. It was exciting, a challenge and I knew I was on my way to somewhere. Meanwhile, I was getting the valuable experiences that I needed, met some incredible mentors and for the most part, enjoyed myself. It was a win win as far as I am concerned.

You need a certain amount of money to live decently, but you don't need a lot of other "things" and can make do with far less than we tell ourselves we need, that in truth, we just really don't have to have. It's also not forever. Nothing is. It's a small time frame in the grand scheme of your entire life and career. Life is not always about the here and now and immediate gratification.....there is also the future, and opportunities awaiting everyone if they seek them out. Besides, the journey and what you do, see, experience and learn along the way is important and has real value.

There are also many pilots making terrific money and having a great QOL, NOT flying pax for the majors around the US too. That is no longer the end all be all of life and hasn't been for a long time. There is ex-pat work, contract flying, flying freight, firefighting flying, bush flying, law enforcement flying, news/tv flying, ferry work, corporate flying, forestry flying, governmental flying, test flying, starting a flight school, charter flying, a host really of all sorts of opportunities out there is one is willing to work hard, set goals, meet those goals, remain focused, and persevere. Too many people sit on their asses, whine and give up.Then they blame "the profession" because it all didn't happen for them quick enough.

You do the type of flying that makes you happy and satisfied. You then adjust your lifestyle around that, just like in every other profession on the planet.

If flying didn't work out for someone, for whatever reasons, sobeit. But too much bitterness and painting all aviation careers in a negative light isn't really useful for someone who is exploring, really wants to do what makes them happy/content and willing to give it a shot.

I'd much rather regret the the things I have done than the things I haven't done. And from what I can tell, this place is about not only educating/mentoring others, but supporting/helping them, being positive, helping them find solutions and encouraging them.

Many things in life are "risky". BFD. That shouldn't stop you from at least trying. Some people just are not cut out for risk or a new venture in the long term or moving or what ever. If you can't stick with it/stick it out, knowing what is involved ahead of time, best not to bother. Do what you think is safe instead. But the rewards for risk taking, and stepping outside your comfort zone can be wonderful, character building and bring other opportunities to you. The terrific thing in life is that we get the chances for do-overs. We get to make changes and seek what really makes us satisfied. We get to live our passion. It depends on how badly you want it. You either have it in you to make aviation a career or you don't. Attitude is everything. Nobody "does" anything to you. We do it to ourselves. Let's just not let our own failures/misconceptions trample on the dreams of others.

Thats a lot more than two cents worth. Where is the OP anyway? We have been getting a lot of these grenade throwing members lately.

 

[tonyw]

Yeah, but your facts aren't right. If your first flying job is making $15k, you're doing it wrong. You could work 3 seasons of survey making $50k, then make more than $25k at almost any 135 outfit worth a damn, then hit a Regional and be making $40k 2nd year. If you bottom-feed the jobs, then yes, life will suck.

How do you get to 1500 hours without working as an instructor at crap wages for a while?

 

[NewYorkophile]

How do you get to 1500 hours without working as an instructor at crap wages for a while?

Guys have said they made $60-80k at Air America, flying 172's around the country and getting 400-600hrs a season. LCA/NSA do the same thing, but for $30-50k.

You could work survey to nearly 1000hrs, take a 1-2 year pay cut to do a 135 gig for multi/turbine time, then go to a respectable Regional.

 

[A Life Aloft]

How do you get to 1500 hours without working as an instructor at crap wages for a while?

Not all instructors are paid "crap" wages and many of them are able to make valuable contacts while instructing, go freelance and start their own business. I am sure you know this so I have no idea what the continued point of beating the gloom and doom drum is serving here. 13 posts in this thread and every single one of them is negative, pessimistic and discouraging. We get it. I am sure the OP gets it. It didn't work out for you. That doesn't mean it won't work out for others. This forum is full of people who have made it work and are making it work as we speak.

 

[killbilly]

Not all instructors are paid "crap" wages and many of them are able to make valuable contacts while instructing. I am sure you know this so I have no idea what the continued point of beating the gloom and doom drum is serving here. 13 posts in this thread and every single one of them is negative, pessimistic and discouraging. We get it. I am sure the OP gets it. It didn't work out for you. That doesn't mean it won't work out for others. This forum is full of people who have made it work and are making it work as we speak.

Curious about something. What's the pay-potential of a career flight instructor, especially a freelancer? I know there aren't a lot of them out there - I remember we had a couple who used to post here (I miss the postings from @tgrayson) but I've heard that well-known professional instructors can actually make a very, very good living. Is that still true?

 

[A Life Aloft]

Curious about something. What's the pay-potential of a career flight instructor, especially a freelancer? I know there aren't a lot of them out there - I remember we had a couple who used to post here (I miss the postings from @tgrayson) but I've heard that well-known professional instructors can actually make a very, very good living. Is that still true?

As far as I know it is. And some instructors earn enough to start their own business freelancing. I have a friend that did this, went in with another instructor, and they have a couple of planes. They are doing very well, and now they are expanding doing some ferry fights and finding used aircraft for new owners, checking the planes out, brokering the deals, etc. There are some very decent, very good schools out there with great reputations which are very busy. One instructor I know went on to work for a manufacturer to instruct on their aircraft. I know another instructor who went from instructing full time then went to part-time instructing because he also went to work for a company who gives air tours. He's having a wonderful time, building boatloads of time, and making terrific money.

It's really how creative, how much a person networks, how much they persevere, how much they hustle, how flexible they are, how positive their attitude is, how much they continue to seek out opportunities, how determined and how disciplined a person is to be willing to put in the time, survive the ups and downs, that makes a difference between those who make it so to speak, and those who stagnate, get discourage, have no patience, go no where and give up. Attitude is seriously everything. At least that has been my experience and what I have seen over the years.

You are either committed for the long haul or you're not. You either have fun/enjoy yourself, have valuable experiences, continue to learn and grow, make contacts along the way and enjoy the journey or you don't. Some people just are not cut out for this. That's the way it is, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, I hate to see them constantly raining on others parade who are. Being realistic is one thing, but constantly holding up the doom and gloom sign (actually beating them over the head with it) is just not helping anyone nor does it give them any ideas for something to try, gives them no support, nor does it spark any hope/inspiration for them.

 

[zmiller4]

My husband is 33 years old. He is thinking to go to flight training school and become a pilot in the future. Currently, he is in the military. (He is a combat engineer/parachuter ,not aviation related)

He has his bachelor degree on Geology, and he is working on his master degree on aviation at Embry -riddle.

1. Is 40 too old to start a pilot career? I am sure his physical condition is good enough to pass the physical requirements, but is it too late to start this career at the age 40?

2.Any good schools that has fast track program recommended?

Thanks in advance

Sorry I missed this. I got my bachelor's in geology in 2002, started flight instructing in 2004, went to the regionals in 2005, then went back to get a master's in geology in 2011. I don't think 40 is too old to start flying by any means, and actually using a geology degree would be pretty difficult with only a bachelor's and no recent experience.

Thanks for your response, Tony. I am a little nervous about finance while he will be in training school and at the start of this process. I know it may depends on people ,but in general, in how many years does it take for a young pilot to reach 50 thousands in salary?

If he goes to one of the better paying regionals, he can make $50k in his second year. There are plenty of career changers who start at 40. Keep in mind, he needs 1500 hours of total time to apply and that will take years to accomplish.

$50k on second year FO pay might be possible, but doing the math you'd have to credit over 1300 hrs for the year, which probably means working *really* hard.

Regarding the utility of a geology degree:

With a geology degree you could do so much more than fly planes.

Well, if you want to get paid, you can either teach or work for an oil company. Otherwise....

If you want to get paid, teaching is not the way. You need a doctorate--which in itself requires years of slaving away for poverty wages--and there are way more Phd's who are postdocs/lecturers than there are good professor positions. If you're lucky enough to land at a big research university, you could top out at major FO wages, but you'll start around regional CA pay. That's if you publish your butt off and survive to get tenure.

Oil companies certainly offer the best compensation, with the supermajors (ExxonMobil, Shell, BP, Chevron, etc) and several of the better smaller companies starting geologists at about ~5-10 year major airline pay (with a master's; more with a phd). They're pretty hard to get on with, though. If you're willing to go up to the boonies in ND/MT, you can apparently make really good money even with just a bachelor's doing mind-numbing work.

Environmental engineering firms hire a fair number of geologists, but from what I saw the pay was ~regional CA, probably topping out about the same.

It's not a great market right now in general for geology grads...a few years ago oil companies were hiring like crazy. It's slowed down some recently at a lot of places. The recession has hurt the environmental firms as well, with slowdowns in construction directly affecting them.

 

[tonyw]

Not all instructors are paid "crap" wages and many of them are able to make valuable contacts while instructing, go freelance and start their own business. I am sure you know this so I have no idea what the continued point of beating the gloom and doom drum is serving here. 13 posts in this thread and every single one of them is negative, pessimistic and discouraging. We get it. I am sure the OP gets it. It didn't work out for you. That doesn't mean it won't work out for others. This forum is full of people who have made it work and are making it work as we speak.

When you make a plan that's going to involve a significant outlay of capital, it is best to plan for the worst, and then if things are better than that, you are golden.

Everyone's assuming, oh, you'll network your way into a great job and you won't have to work as an instructor at Joe's FBO making $15K a year with no benefits.

And if that happens, that's great!

But if it doesn't, and you planned on that happening, now you are screwed.

Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

I am damn glad that when I was thinking of making the leap from private pilot to doing it for a living, Doug was around to set me straight about what it would entail.

You should be, too. Because if he didn't, I'd be that jackass nobody wanted to fly with.

 

[A Life Aloft]

When you make a plan that's going to involve a significant outlay of capital, it is best to plan for the worst, and then if things are better than that, you are golden.

Everyone's assuming, oh, you'll network your way into a great job and you won't have to work as an instructor at Joe's FBO making $15K a year with no benefits.

And if that happens, that's great!

But if it doesn't, and you planned on that happening, now you are screwed.

Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

I am damn glad that when I was thinking of making the leap from private pilot to doing it for a living, Doug was around to set me straight about what it would entail.

You should be, too. Because if he didn't, I'd be that jackass nobody wanted to fly with.

Seriously, I have never in my life "planned for the worst" in anything I have ever done or attempted to do. lol That just has never been my outlook on life. If it was, I wouldn't have done half the things that I have, wouldn't have had the opportunities and experiences that I have had, would have had a lot more failures, and would have given up decades ago. That doesn't mean that I went into anything willy nilly, didn't think it out, weight my options and was unprepared. But my attitude has never been one of focusing on failure either. No one here is assuming anything. The difference is that many other people's experience and attitude seems to be different from yours and maybe you need to at least acknowledge that.

I also don't "hope" for the best. I make the best out of everything and every situation that I can. I took a huge gamble when I left my carrier, I sunk a fortune into my idea. I worked very hard to make it work. It wasn't luck either. It was finding my niche, working some side aviation gigs til it took off, preparing, being unique, working my ass off, putting the pieces together one at a time and growing/expanding one day at a time. Had I failed, at least I would have had another adventure, tried my best and would have picked up and done something else.

A person is never really screwed either. There are always options. Some people however don't seem to have the ability to see, let alone pursue them though. I come from the "if there's a will, there's a way" school of thought. That was what my Dad taught me and what I have taught my own children and grandchildren. So far, he hasn't been wrong. Like I have always said, attitude is everything. Your glass is either half full or half empty and in some people's cases, it's just empty and if something happens to fall in it, great. Sorry, I don't ascribe to that mindset.

 

[mandyk]

Thanks for everyone's responses either it's negative or positive. So far, we will just wait and see. I told my husband I will support him to achieve his dream if I get a decent job in the future. Currently, I am working to become a therapist. So I can't promise him anything right now until I can support our family financially.

If it doesn't work, our back up plan is for him to work government job like FAA or Air Marshal ( anyone knows about these kind of job ?) since he is in the military and will have a master degree in aviation science.

I don't think my husband wants to be an airline pilot. If so, we don't mind to relocate overseas. Is aviation industry blooming in other countries ? I think he prefers to do like freight , crop pilot. The pay is that awful as some guys described ?

 

[HVYMETALDRVR]

I don't think my husband wants to be an airline pilot. If so, we don't mind to relocate overseas. Is aviation industry blooming in other countries ? I think he prefers to do like freight , crop pilot. The pay is that awful as some guys described ?

Regional? It depends, but yes. Its designed for kids coming out of college in they're early to mid 20s. Right now the going rate for an average regional is about 24K year 1, probably about 40K by year 4 as a First Officer. There's a lot more to aviation that airlines though, corporate usually pays more for half the work. There's a fair amount of corporate pilots on here that bank 45K/yr and up and fly less than 10 days a month. Corporate is tricky to get into though, most employers hire through internal recommendations and people they already know. Corporate flight depts are usually small and prone to cutbacks and the rise and fall of the economy.

Once a person upgrades to CA the pay usually jumps to about 60-65K and rises depending upon the type of aircraft and company (airline or corporate). There's also crop dusting, like I mentioned earlier. Like someone mentioned earlier, he should probably start flying now on weekends for fun and get his Private License to make sure its what he wants to do. Even hanging around the local airport, attending fly-in brunches, networking etc goes a long way.
Good Luck.

 

[GypsyPilot]

Not all instructors are paid "crap" wages and many of them are able to make valuable contacts while instructing, go freelance and start their own business. I am sure you know this so I have no idea what the continued point of beating the gloom and doom drum is serving here. 13 posts in this thread and every single one of them is negative, pessimistic and discouraging. We get it. I am sure the OP gets it. It didn't work out for you. That doesn't mean it won't work out for others. This forum is full of people who have made it work and are making it work as we speak.

More than once we've seen a member create a post seeking "advice" about some ill conceived plan, only to end up arguing with everybody as a way to rationalize their poor decision. Similarly, it appears that TonyW is attempting to rationalize giving up on a professional pilot career. Prior to this particular thread, I never would have thought that was the case with him. But his repeated attempts at doom and gloom sure seem to indicate otherwise.

Incidentally, I also did pretty ok as a CFI. I sure never made anything like these $15k/yr figures thrown around. I worked pretty hard (like 6 days/wk, all day), but was having a blast and made good connections and lifelong friends. I can't remember how much I made exactly, but it was about $30k/yr. This was a few years ago too (2007), when expenses (food, rent, etc.) were a little cheaper.

Edit: Corrected username

 

[killbilly]

More than once we've seen a member create a post seeking "advice" about some ill conceived plan, only to end up arguing with everybody as a way to rationalize their poor decision. Similarly, it appears that TonyC is attempting to rationalize giving up on a professional pilot career. Prior to this particular thread, I never would have thought that was the case with him. But his repeated attempts at doom and gloom sure seem to indicate otherwise.

Incidentally, I also did pretty ok as a CFI. I sure never made anything like these $15k/yr figures thrown around. I worked pretty hard (like 6 days/wk, all day), but was having a blast and made good connections and lifelong friends. I can't remember how much I made exactly, but it was about $30k/yr. This was a few years ago too (2007), when expenses (food, rent, etc.) were a little cheaper.

Whoa there....not that I think @tonyw needs me to speak for him, but I don't take that from his posts at all. He weighed the decision based on a lot of information he gleaned from Doug and this site and decided that aviation wasn't a good fit for him as a career change. He even explicitly stated - twice - that he would have been the "bad" guy to have on a trip, bitching about the conditions of the job.

'Tis a hard thing to confront the romanticism of one's dreams with their own reality and make a hard decision like that.

As for CFI pay...at the time when those conversations were top of mind, so to speak, a LOT of the focus on this website was about ATP instructors and what they were making, which was considerably less than what a lot of other instructors were making, although the tradeoff was lots of multi-time and company-subsidized housing.

Tony can chime in on his own thing here, but I don't see Tony rationalizing anything to anyone. I'm betting he wants to be honest and thorough about HIS thought processes and plans, which are different from what a lot of people have done. And information - even if not what one might WANT to hear - is good to have.

 

[ChasenSFO]

Interesting turn this thread has taken...

If you're worried about the wages, find a second career that you can balance(and better yet supplement) with flying. Flying 121 at the regional level doesn't pay nearly enough for the life I want to create, but that won't matter if the other stuff I'm doing works out.

It's not a race, you get one life, do what works for you. I want to stay in the Bay Area, and I want to enjoy life as I build time and earn my ratings. This means many survey companies aren't an option for me, and that I'm stuck paying the super high rental rates and $75-80/hr for CFI's out here. But I accept that, and don't bitch about. Doesn't mean I don't plan on doing it all, just at my own pace. Flying for a living is doing a job. Right now I think the job I have is awesome, and I love doing it, but it's a job. Be careful what you sacrifice to get a job, your 20s are years you will not get back. If it's worth it to you, good, go for it. But only you know what you want in life.

Guys have said they made $60-80k at Air America, flying 172's around the country and getting 400-600hrs a season. LCA/NSA do the same thing, but for $30-50k.

You could work survey to nearly 1000hrs, take a 1-2 year pay cut to do a 135 gig for multi/turbine time, then go to a respectable Regional.

From people I knew at Air America, when you factor in getting your own hotels/transportation and paying taxes, you take away a lot less than that But time building wise, it seems like it can be pretty amazing.

 

[GypsyPilot]

Whoa there....not that I think @tonyw needs me to speak for him, but I don't take that from his posts at all. He weighed the decision based on a lot of information he gleaned from Doug and this site and decided that aviation wasn't a good fit for him as a career change. He even explicitly stated - twice - that he would have been the "bad" guy to have on a trip, bitching about the conditions of the job.

'Tis a hard thing to confront the romanticism of one's dreams with their own reality and make a hard decision like that.

As for CFI pay...at the time when those conversations were top of mind, so to speak, a LOT of the focus on this website was about ATP instructors and what they were making, which was considerably less than what a lot of other instructors were making, although the tradeoff was lots of multi-time and company-subsidized housing.

Tony can chime in on his own thing here, but I don't see Tony rationalizing anything to anyone. I'm betting he wants to be honest and thorough about HIS thought processes and plans, which are different from what a lot of people have done. And information - even if not what one might WANT to hear - is good to have.

I think his first several posts had great value, but his repeated attempts at painting the doom and gloom picture make me wonder. His constant argument using incomes that many of us here (that are actually, you know, doing this for a living?) have refuted, yet he continues. There are a lot of us here that were in a similar position to him at one point as well. @Autothrust Blue, @Jet, myself, and so on are former tech/engineering types that used to make a lot more money. I never would have suspected him of trying to rationalize his decision, but now I'm not so sure. Maybe he doesn't even realize he's doing it, I don't know. Just my opinion.

 

[tonyw]

I'm not rationalizing crap.

I am simply stating the logic I applied in deciding, this is not a career path I want to go down. Now, maybe things have changed. Maybe you don't have to go do a $15K a year instructor job for a year or two until you get to the magic 1500 hours.

Yes, I am providing the original poster with a worst case scenario. As I said, plan for the worst, hope for the best.

You can dismiss me as full of crap because I'm not in the industry, and you know what, that's fair.

But when Sullenberger says, "I do not know a single professional airline pilot who wants his or her children to follow in their footsteps" and in the same hearing, his first officer said he was working a second job to maintain a middle class lifestyle, you cannot dismiss their comments as ramblings from someone who's not in the industry.

And they were working for a major. Do they not know what they're talking about?

 

[GypsyPilot]

Medical doctors and lawyers say that too... So no, it doesn't mean much to me.

His FO working a second job to maintain his lifestyle, good grief. I'd imagine Jeff Skiles was making more money than either of my parents ever did, and more than most engineers I know.

 

[dasleben]

@tonyw has it right, IMO.

You can say "XXXX will pay you $60k/year to fly a 172," but unless you have a job offer at XXXX, it doesn't mean anything. Most people will end up taking the $15k/year instructing job; the numbers don't lie, and it may very well be you. People need to prepare for the strong possibility that the $60k/year 172 job won't be available when you're building time.

When I got hired to fly RJs at my former [super] regional airline, I was told in the interview that I'd be a captain in 18 months, and that it'd be the second to last interview of my career. The last interview, of course, would have been Continental. A year later, I was on the street, and Continental no longer exists in its previous form. I ended up landing on my feet, but it's taken years to get to a respectable level of pay (and when I say "respectable," I'm not talking about the $35k-$40k/year level; sorry, that's what assistant managers get paid at clothing stores at the mall, guys). This is something that must be accounted for when deciding to pursue a career in this field.

Sometimes it's easy, oftentimes it's not. And you know, it's not really in your control. Go in with the understanding that you may sling gear in the right seat of an RJ for 8 years. I know if I was still at my previous regional, that's exactly what I'd be doing.