Appologize if its a repost...musicians denied boarding

After dealing with people insisting on their giant bags fitting in a CRJ overhead for a few years, my best is these guys were dbags about it and refused to put their stuff in the cargo bin regardless. I got so tired of hearing "IT FIT ON THE LAST PLANE!!!!! that I just quit bothering to argue with people, only to watch them walk right back out with their huge carry ons after they tried to argue the point with me.
 
wheelsup said:
Well I didn't realize you were ATC. Those guys dress pretty funky, they just don't care.

But, outside of your work environment, you will be treated better by the general population if you dress better and don't look like a slob. That's just life. I really can't believe we are having a debate about this...
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As a rule of thumb, yes. But I'm really not talking about society. Like I said in the original post, if I'm a revenue pax in a ninja turtle t-shirt, and I paid as much as the dude in the 3-piece suit, and I'm being polite and respectful, I deserve the same treatment from the cabin and/or flight crew(who are paid to deal with people as required). Period. I did airline CS, if I treated two equally respectful people differently due to how they were dressed, that's more of a reflection on me as a person then them for their style or lack-there-of. I get people do it anyway, I don't agree with it.
JordanD said:
I got so tired of hearing "IT FIT ON THE LAST PLANE!!!!! that I just quit bothering to argue with people, only to watch them walk right back out with their huge carry ons after they tried to argue the point with me.
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LOL that's what you have to do. Really.
 
Just so everybody knows, I'm flying a two day trip starting later tonight. If you show up on any one of my flights, I will find a place for your violin, priceless crystal vase or that big glass picture you have of your Grandma holding you on the porchswing when you were a baby. Just tell the gate agent that the captain said he would make it work. See ya on the plane!
 
ChasenSFO said:
As a rule of thumb, yes. But I'm really not talking about society. Like I said in the original post, if I'm a revenue pax in a ninja turtle t-shirt, and I paid as much as the dude in the 3-piece suit, and I'm being polite and respectful, I deserve the same treatment from the cabin and/or flight crew(who are paid to deal with people as required). Period. I did airline CS, if I treated two equally respectful people differently due to how they were dressed, that's more of a reflection on me as a person then them for their style or lack-there-of. I get people do it anyway, I don't agree with it.

LOL that's what you have to do. Really.
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In your opinion were these folks being respectful by playing their instruments on the ramp and "staging a protest"?
 
SeanD said:
Anyone remember the passenger who was a regular on XJT and in the 100k mile club at UA who would buy a seat for his cello?
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I had a passenger fitting this description on one of my flights in Dulles last year.
 
Crew bags for flight crew get stowed behind the galley carts, FA's in the forward closet. PSA RJ7 specific info.

This probably could have been handled better by all parties.
 
CaptBill said:
I'll bet that if the captain or FO happened to be carrying their own fragile items (maybe violins) that there would be another option than loading them in the belly. My point was, there didn't appear to be much empathy on the part of the airline; however, I wasn't there and don't have the whole story. I do see on a far too regular basis though, airline employees that almost go out of their way to provide poor customer service and flex their authority improperly. As a crew member, you do have the ability, on occasion, to right a wrong and I encourage you to do it.
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If it were the CA or FO, they could store it in the flight deck. I used to do that for things like wedding dresses, musical instruments, etc. Then the FOM got changed and it made that a huge no-no and security issue. Fact is, there are things like legalities and company policies that will occasionally tie crew members hands. If Dream Theater, much less some guys I don't know from the busker in Times Square, showed up, I wouldn't risk my career and my family's livelihood just so they could get a carry on into the plane instead of the cargo bin. There's accommodating (which I have to agree there needs to be more of in the industry), and then there's flat out breaking a rule. If PSA's FOM says "no carry ons" as another poster said, well, then that kinda kills that argument right there.
 
Average passenger weight does not account for carry on baggage. It accounts for "personal items." Is a violin considered a personal item or carry on bag? I don't think they weigh much and would likely fit in the overhead bin. I wasn't there though, so who really knows what happened? I think an effort could have been made to allow it, but once the grandstanding began, I doubt anyone was feeling very helpful. Again, I wasn't there so who knows.
 
I know most musicians would consider their instrument very personal, lol. The FAA, on the other hand...
 
wheelsup said:
Your beef is with society. It's just a fact of life, if you look good, dress well etc. you'll likely be treated better.
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John T. Molloy did a scholarly study of the subject back in the 70's. The bottom line is it does make a difference. In fact, it makes a lot of difference. So, you're absolutely correct. Whether people like it or not is irrelevant, it's just a fact of life. It's logically similar to the person who says "it's my nose and I'll pick it anywhere and anytime I choose". They are free to make that assertion, but they would be foolish to think they will be treated the same as someone without his or her finger in their nose.
 
Houston said:
Look at paragraph 201 in this Advisory Circular:

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli....cfm/go/document.information/documentID/22749
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I think he falls into the 201.d section. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the CRJ considered a non carryon aircraft or is it company specific?

Side note....Thanks for pulling up this AC. I always wondered where they got those numbers and how they could come to such, in my opinion, arbitrary numbers.
Learned something today so I guess I can call it a night.
 
Houston said:
Look at paragraph 201 in this Advisory Circular:

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli....cfm/go/document.information/documentID/22749
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And we do not have an approved carry on program. So again, is it a personal item or is it a carry on? By FAA definition its up to the operator to decide what is a personal item and what is not. My personal feeling is that these items were fairly lightweight and could have been brought on board. That's above my pay grade though and until I'm signing for the aircraft its not up to me.
 
amorris311 said:
I think he falls into the 201.d section. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the CRJ considered a non carryon aircraft or is it company specific?

Side note....Thanks for pulling up this AC. I always wondered where they got those numbers and how they could come to such, in my opinion, arbitrary numbers.
Learned something today so I guess I can call it a night.
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You've got me on the first question.

On the second paragraph, the interesting part is "where DID they come up with that number". Yes, that is what the AC says, but according to the US Department of Health and Human Services, the average American male weighs 194.7 pounds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_weight#cite_note-11

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr010.pdf

So, where did the idea that the summer weight of the average adult male on an airplane, plus his shoes and clothes, plus his personal items, plus his carry on bag weighs and average of 190 pounds come from? I don't know and I wish I did.
 
CaptBill said:
As captains and future captains, don't do dumb things like this. Walk up and shake their hands and find a solution that works for everyone. This (I am in charge), (I am the captain), (You have to do it our way) mentality that seems to permeate many airlines is disgraceful. Is it really that difficult to see this through the musician's eyes? As a captain, I've had many situations similar to this dumped in my lap to solve. Some aren't fixable, but most just take a little creativity and giving a damn. Look for opportunities to take care of the needs of your passengers and you will be a better crew member for doing it - to say nothing of the goodwill you will create.
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OOOOOH!!! I see what I think you did there...

@CaptBill It is my understand that you work for an organization that values leadership skills. Additionally, it is my understanding that you - YOURSELF - have some of these coveted skills. Well, allow me to express a minor dose of reality:

The "regionals," if you will, do not believe in allowing pilots have leadership skills. Instead, pilots are required to be well versed in every black and white issue that may be presented to them during their tenure as pilots. You see, if "regionals" believe in leadership skills, they would hire leaders. If they believe in leadership skills, they would have strong CRM programs that focus on leadership and followership skills. If they believe in leadership skills, folks with poor social skills would not be hired. If they believe in leadership skills, creepy pilots who stare at 9 year old females during the boarding process would not be hired. If they believed in leadership skills, well - hot damn - they might not be able to staff the airline.

So - guess what, for some regional pilots - this is their first professional job. You know, the gig you secure after college or high school in which you are required to interact with additional human beings in the common goal of making it through the day without harming someone else? Yeah, this is the first time for many of them. And then they spend sometime as an FO, fortunate to upgrade to Captain. They then attend upgrade training on how to be a "Captain," where they watch a funny clip about CRM and are told the same thing they have been told throughout their careers "Use all available resources."

Well guess what...the socially awkward ones, the creepy ones, the ones that can't assert any power whatsoever because they were never trained to be a legitimate LEADER - flop. And boy do they flop hard. You want them to SHAKE A PASSENGERS HAND!? AND THEN FIND A SOLUTION!? HAH...

So hey, there you go. The evolution of some of mainline airline's future right-seaters. They'll fool you. And in ten years, you'll wonder why your customer service ratings are in the tank because the Captains you hired a decade ago never were leaders...and they sure as • won't start when they become MD88/737/767 FOs at Mainline X.

Leadership, a lost skill.
 
surreal1221 said:
OOOOOH!!! I see what I think you did there...

@CaptBill It is my understand that you work for an organization that values leadership skills. Additionally, it is my understanding that you - YOURSELF - have some of these coveted skills. Well, allow me to express a minor dose of reality:

The "regionals," if you will, do not believe in allowing pilots have leadership skills. Instead, pilots are required to be well versed in every black and white issue that may be presented to them during their tenure as pilots. You see, if "regionals" believe in leadership skills, they would hire leaders. If they believe in leadership skills, they would have strong CRM programs that focus on leadership and followership skills. If they believe in leadership skills, folks with poor social skills would not be hired. If they believe in leadership skills, creepy pilots who stare at 9 year old females during the boarding process would not be hired. If they believed in leadership skills, well - hot damn - they might not be able to staff the airline.

So - guess what, for some regional pilots - this is their first professional job. You know, the gig you secure after college or high school in which you are required to interact with additional human beings in the common goal of making it through the day without harming someone else? Yeah, this is the first time for many of them. And then they spend sometime as an FO, fortunate to upgrade to Captain. They then attend upgrade training on how to be a "Captain," where they watch a funny clip about CRM and are told the same thing they have been told throughout their careers "Use all available resources."

Well guess what...the socially awkward ones, the creepy ones, the ones that can't assert any power whatsoever because they were never trained to be a legitimate LEADER - flop. And boy do they flop hard. You want them to SHAKE A PASSENGERS HAND!? AND THEN FIND A SOLUTION!? HAH...

So hey, there you go. The evolution of some of mainline airline's future right-seaters. They'll fool you. And in ten years, you'll wonder why your customer service ratings are in the tank because the Captains you hired a decade ago never were leaders...and they sure as won't start when they become MD88/737/767 FOs at Mainline X.

Leadership, a lost skill.
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Leadership, professionalism and civility are individual skills that are yours alone to develop and employ. I fly with lots of good guys that flew for crappy places prior to coming to my airline. Most of these bad attitudes come from allowing others to shape how you live and react to life's challenges.

If you find yourself angry and unhappy, it's up to you to make changes. If it takes a CRM program to shape your social skills, you have bigger problems than an eight hour class can solve.

We can't blame who we work for for all our shortfalls. Doing the right thing and treating others how we would like to be treated falls on our shoulders, not some ambiguous boogie man or evil organization.
 
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