91K question for Logbook

[GlenA]

I have a question as far as part 91K and how that all factors in to total PIC experience. The plane I have been flying was operating as 91K until recently. I know that the flights I did for the new fractional owners fell under 91k but what about the flights I did for the original owner of the aircraft? Are those still considered 91K or just regular part 91 flying? I found this excerpt in the prohibitions section under this part and it puts limitations on the time the original owner can put on the plane so I wonder if that means that all flights while they were under this agreement were 91K flights?

"(b)During the term of the multi-year program agreements under which a fractional owner has obtained a minimum fractional ownership interest in a program aircraft, the flight hours used during that term by the owner on program aircraft must not exceed the total hours associated with the fractional owner's share of ownership."

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I have a question as far as part 91K and how that all factors in to total PIC experience. The plane I have been flying was operating as 91K until recently. I know that the flights I did for the new fractional owners fell under 91k but what about the flights I did for the original owner of the aircraft? Are those still considered 91K or just regular part 91 flying? I found this excerpt in the prohibitions section under this part and it puts limitations on the time the original owner can put on the plane so I wonder if that means that all flights while they were under this agreement were 91K flights?

"(b)During the term of the multi-year program agreements under which a fractional owner has obtained a minimum fractional ownership interest in a program aircraft, the flight hours used during that term by the owner on program aircraft must not exceed the total hours associated with the fractional owner's share of ownership."

I don't really understand the question. Fractional ownership involves multiple ownership interests,so I'm not sure what you mean by "original owner" since all of the fractional share owners are "owners" whether through an LLC membership, a series of dry leases or some other fractional share mechanism. If you mean the party or company that owned the aircraft before it was placed in fractional ownership, well, before it was fractionally owned under Subpart K, it was not part of a fractional ownership program.

I don't see anything in the part you quoted fro the reg that refers to an "original" owner. Just the fractional owners. A fractional owner is limited to its ownership share when computing the fractional owner's flight time share.

I'm not sure about the logbook relevance. Have you decided to track your 91K flying for some reason?

 

[Patrick]

What exactly are you getting at here? Are you referring to aircraft logs or your personal pilot logbook? If the latter, is there a reason that you want to keep track of 91k flying?

If the "original owner" previously owned the aircraft outright, and then subsequently took on partners or enrolled in a fractional ownership program such that the aircraft was then operated under subpart "k", all previous flying would have been straight 91 (or 135, if any of that was going on as well), and any subsequent flying would be under 91k.

 

[Cpt Cook]

What exactly are you getting at here? Are you referring to aircraft logs or your personal pilot logbook? If the latter, is there a reason that you want to keep track of 91k flying? .

He probably wants to track is 91K for the new regs (completely ridiculously written reg) regarding flight time requirements to be a 121 PIC. (1000hrs as 121 SIC, 135 PIC commuter, or 91K PIC).

 

[GlenA]

Yup that's the one. Sorry I wasn't more clear. I have 900 hours of Part 121 SIC time and if I can combine the 91K flying then I exceed the requirementsto walk on as a street captain somewhere. I just was trying to figure out if all the flying I performed in that aircraft counts as 91K after the owner entered that agreement.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Yup that's the one. Sorry I wasn't more clear. I have 900 hours of Part 121 SIC time and if I can combine the 91K flying then I exceed the requirementsto walk on as a street captain somewhere. I just was trying to figure out if all the flying I performed in that aircraft counts as 91K after the owner entered that agreement.

Still kind of depends on what the Subpart K agreements say and I still don't really understand what you are saying about the ownershi of the aircraft but, generally speaking...

If Joe owns and airplane all by himself and Joe then sets up a 91K fractional ownership mechanism effective May 1 in which Joe is only a fractional owner, flying done for Joe after May 1 is 91K flying. That would generally be the case but the problem I have giving a straight answer is, without knowing the exact setup, I have no idea if Joe is "only" a fractional owner or not.

 

[GlenA]

Actually that explanation seems to be what I was looking for. Basically all flying in that aircraft became 91K for the period that this agreement was entered for. The way I read the FARs is that it counts towards the prerequisite to sit as a 121 Pic.

 

[z987k]

Actually that explanation seems to be what I was looking for. Basically all flying in that aircraft became 91K for the period that this agreement was entered for. The way I read the FARs is that it counts towards the prerequisite to sit as a 121 Pic.

As long as the airplane we're talking about here is multi engine turbine.(and you're PIC of it)

I do find it interesting that to meet the 121.436 requirement, a King Air 90 would be sufficient under 91k, but under 135 you must have more than 10 seats and/or turbojet. I've never flown 91k, apparently it's more like 121 than 135 is.

 

[Cpt Cook]

As long as the airplane we're talking about here is multi engine turbine.(and you're PIC of it)

I do find it interesting that to meet the 121.436 requirement, a King Air 90 would be sufficient under 91k, but under 135 you must have more than 10 seats and/or turbojet. I've never flown 91k, apparently it's more like 121 than 135 is.

Imagine how those 135 guys feel that have BE 99, metro, or 1900 time that doesn't count just because we flew boxes instead of seats! I fly the plane the same no matter what's in the back (granted I care a lot less about turbulence if it's boxes). In my opinion if the aircraft can be configured for 10 seats then that time should count, but the FAA disagrees.

 

[z987k]

Imagine how those 135 guys feel that have BE 99, metro, or 1900 time that doesn't count just because we flew boxes instead of seats! I fly the plane the same no matter what's in the back (granted I care a lot less about turbulence if it's boxes). In my opinion if the aircraft can be configured for 10 seats then that time should count, but the FAA disagrees.

Yes I was very disappointed. I'd be doing something different right now if they pulled their head out of their ass.
I even flew over 1000 hours of something that requires an atp under 135 but does not count.