DUI Question

av8rdrew

av8rdrew

Well-Known Member
Hello Mr. Hein,

I was arrested for DUI (alcohol) in June, 2013 in Georgia and went to court for this charge in October, 2013. Of course I notified the FAA of the arrest. At the time of the arrest, I did not have a current medical and I do not have a current medical at this time. At the time of my arrest I blew 0.127. In this state, the legal limit is .08.

After the DUI, my driver license was not suspended, so there was no "Administrative Action" as I understand the definition of this term with respect to DUI. My attorney who represented me told me that the "Administrative Action" is a hearing that has to do with suspension of the driver license and that never happened; I think because of my behavior at the scene, the fact that I've never had any legal problems and the fact I had a pretty good lawyer.

Having said all of the above, when I went to court, I was placed in a Pre-Trial Diversion Program for one year and the charge against me is supposed to be dismissed this coming October. I plead guilty to the charge, but was not convicted. Prior to my hearing, my lawyer advised me to take a 24 hour DUI class that is mandatory in Georgia for those convicted of DUI. As part of the class, students are required to take a written "test" to assess their "risk" with respect to substance abuse or another DUI. I scored a 4 on the test, which is tantamount to scoring a 96 out of a 100 and indicates virtually no risk. In other words, the closer the score is to 0, the "better" one has done on the "test" and the less likely that person is for future DUI or drug/alcohol problems. As part of the diversion program, I was required to undergo a drug and alcohol evaluation by a licensed drug and alcohol evaluator and to attend any education classes or counseling recommended by the evaluator. The evaluator expressed that I do not have a drug or alcohol abuse problem and did not see a need/recommend any drug or alcohol counseling or classes. I was also required to do some community service and of course, pay the fee to be in the diversion program. Throughout all of this, I've maintained my driver license and still have full driving privileges.

What say you? Specifically, what should I be preparing myself for with the FAA? I also have a medical issue that I will have to deal with as well when I apply for my next medical, but would like to know what I should start working on legally for the DUI/for the FAA. I also plan to have this expunged as well. If the arrest record is expunged, will I still have to disclose it if I apply for a flying job? My sense is that I would not.

Thanks,

Drew
 
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Hi Drew. First of all, if you're going to not disclose your arrest on your apps because it's expunged, I'd suggest you delete this post and screen name, and never, ever, speak about it on social networking or give out details online (name, what part of the country your from, date of arrest, BAC, what airlines you want to work for, training background, ect...)

When an app says "were you ever arrested for a DUI", it's a yes or no answer. You say in the first sentence above you were arrested and give an exact date. You might have a legal case after you get it expunged that you shouldn't have had to report it on the app but what are you going to do then, sue the airline that's just hired you or interviewed you? Good luck with that...

On the other hand you could say yes on the app, put in remarks it was expunged due to your positive actions and the airline won't find any evidence of it on a background check. Some airlines you are screwed if you check yes, I'm sure, others might take the time to look at your honesty as a positive. For sure, you'll be asked about it if you ever get to an interview. Have all the documentation of your treatment and have a REALLY good dialogue pre-practiced where you speak of what you've learned and how much better person you are after having this experience.

And don't get another DUI.

But, seriously, if you're going to use an expungement as reason not to check the yes box, you should delete this post and change your screen name.
 
I would also add that I doubt the attorney will be able to give you specific legal advice on a public forum. I would suggest contacting him or another attorney through normal channels of communication in order to discuss this in detail.
 
As has been discussed here and elsewhere, I can't give you specific legal advice. What I can do is tell you about an earlier case. Pilot was stopped while driving and charged with DUI. Charges were later dismissed. Pilot's attorney advised pilot to "treat it like it never happened." Based on that advice, Pilot did not disclose the charge on a medical application. FAA later discovered the omission. The pilot was violated for lying on the application for medical certificate and an "emergency" revocation followed. Take it for what it's worth. (Just for the record the pilot in this case was never my client).
 
Drew,

I used to work as an Assistant Solicitor (state court prosecutor) in Georgia. There's not an easy answer to your question for several reasons.

Pre-trial diversion or "DUI Court" as it's commonly referred to, is a relatively new concept in Georgia. I'm not sure of how the courts exchange information with the state DMV or the National Driver Registry. Thus, while the disposition of your case may not statutorily be considered a "conviction", your participation in the diversion program may still be reported.

There are usually two types suspensions in a DUI case. The first, the "administrative suspension", happens when a driver refuses a BAC test or when a test result shows a BAC in excess of .08. Both kinds are usually reported to the DMV. Sometimes, a nice cop will cut you a break and "forget" to file a "1205" form, in which case your license will not be suspended before disposition of your court case and there will be no

I presume you were fingerprinted upon arrest. Congratulations, you've joined the National Crime Information Center and Georgia crime Information Center. Your arrest, regardless of disposition of the charges, has been recorded and will probably be disclosed to the FAA.

My advice, as an attorney and ATP, is that by disclosing your DUI to the FAA, you may have to jump through a few extra hoops to get your medical. However, if you do not disclose it and the FAA discovers it, you may never fly again.

Attorney Alan Armstrong, who is an FAA enforcement defense genius, is based in Georgia near KPDK. I suggest you spend a few $$ for a brief consultation. In the same building is Dr. Stephen Leonard, an Aviation Medical Examiner and ATP who is a whiz at resolving pilot medical issues with the FAA.
 
Here is a bit of advice from someone who has been through a few background checks in the past year, including two very extensive ones. I was not applying for an airline, but for jobs in Law Enforcement, including two State Police agencies. I also do not have a DUI in my past, so take this advice for what it is worth.

Disclose everything. 100% of the time, you will be better off being forthright and honest about everything in your past than trying to cover something up. This is because if and when a background investigator finds something you "forgot" to disclose or purposefully failed to disclose, it will make you look like a liar. Any employer can deal with someone who has made mistakes in their past. No employer wants someone without integrity.

We all have stuff in our past that we are ashamed of. Nobody is perfect. Just own it and move on.
 
IrishSheepdog said:
Disclose everything. 100% of the time, you will be better off being forthright and honest about everything in your past than trying to cover something up. This is because if and when a background investigator finds something you "forgot" to disclose or purposefully failed to disclose, it will make you look like a liar. Any employer can deal with someone who has made mistakes in their past. No employer wants someone without integrity.
Click to expand...

This is not necessarily true depending on the state. In some places, you may "lawfully deny or fail to acknowledge" the arrest except in certain situations (applying to a criminal justice agency could be one of those). Obviously you have to report it to the FAA though.
 
at1024 said:
This is not necessarily true depending on the state. In some places, you may "lawfully deny or fail to acknowledge" the arrest except in certain situations (applying to a criminal justice agency could be one of those). Obviously you have to report it to the FAA though.
Click to expand...

Sure, you can lawfully deny that it ever happened. However, if it is uncovered by an airline, what's to say they won't hire you because of it?
 
IrishSheepdog said:
Sure, you can lawfully deny that it ever happened. However, if it is uncovered by an airline, what's to say they won't hire you because of it?
Click to expand...
Depends on the state. In some places the only way to access that would be through a court order, and those aren't exactly handed out like candy.
 
I've learned that honesty, or lack thereof, will be the first thing to get you fired. Don't lie about anything- be transparent.

Secondly, why were you driving a car blowing a 0.127 ?
I know we all make mistakes but that is clearly demonstrating poor discretion. The recruiter will say " why do we hire a guy that doesn't follow rules"'? I once was one and a recent DUI would put your file in a pile that you don't want to find it in.

I'm just being real.
 
As far as getting hired by an airline, just be honest about it. Most of the regionals do not care as long as you can go to Canada. Not being able to enter Canada is a bigger deal than the DUI itself as far as the regionals are concerned. As far as the majors go, it will be 5 years from the end of your sentence before you can even apply to go to Canada, and the processing of that paperwork is 2.5 years right now. So it will be 7.5 years before you can even consider the majors so just keep your record clean in that time and I imagine you'll be able to get in. In my experience, the economy drives everything.
 
THIS IS A TIP FOR ANYONE WHO IS APPLYING AT THE AIRLINES:

BEFORE YOU APPLY:
Get a copy of your FBI Long Form Background Check. This background check covers everything from the time that you turned 18.
You can find this here.
When you get fingerprinted by HR in the first days, this is what they are printing you for. The more educated that you are about what the FBI says about you, the easier the process will be. This is Gospel to the airlines. Period.

Get a copy of your State, and National Driving Records. State can be obtained by going to the website of your State MVD and paying a minor fee. Pay it, and get it.
National Driving Record can be obtained here.

Lastly, disclose every single thing that appears on all of those documents. Period. They will see it. All of it. And you want to see it, and disclose it before they do. You will get bounced in training (EVEN IF IT WAS something that happened 20 years ago, was set aside or expunged,) and it shows up on any of those docs.

You do not want to be in a position where you get hired, go through 3 weeks of training, and get bounced one day before your oral for something that happened 20, or even 2, years ago.

If anything, over disclose.
 
atpesq said:
Drew,

I used to work as an Assistant Solicitor (state court prosecutor) in Georgia. There's not an easy answer to your question for several reasons.

Pre-trial diversion or "DUI Court" as it's commonly referred to, is a relatively new concept in Georgia. I'm not sure of how the courts exchange information with the state DMV or the National Driver Registry. Thus, while the disposition of your case may not statutorily be considered a "conviction", your participation in the diversion program may still be reported.

There are usually two types suspensions in a DUI case. The first, the "administrative suspension", happens when a driver refuses a BAC test or when a test result shows a BAC in excess of .08. Both kinds are usually reported to the DMV. Sometimes, a nice cop will cut you a break and "forget" to file a "1205" form, in which case your license will not be suspended before disposition of your court case and there will be no

I presume you were fingerprinted upon arrest. Congratulations, you've joined the National Crime Information Center and Georgia crime Information Center. Your arrest, regardless of disposition of the charges, has been recorded and will probably be disclosed to the FAA.

My advice, as an attorney and ATP, is that by disclosing your DUI to the FAA, you may have to jump through a few extra hoops to get your medical. However, if you do not disclose it and the FAA discovers it, you may never fly again.

Attorney Alan Armstrong, who is an FAA enforcement defense genius, is based in Georgia near KPDK. I suggest you spend a few $$ for a brief consultation. In the same building is Dr. Stephen Leonard, an Aviation Medical Examiner and ATP who is a whiz at resolving pilot medical issues with the FAA.
Click to expand...

Good answer. I would only add that pilots should count on the FAA discovering any failure to disclose. And, Alan is definitely one of the good guys.
 
GX said:
THIS IS A TIP FOR ANYONE WHO IS APPLYING AT THE AIRLINES:

BEFORE YOU APPLY:
Get a copy of your FBI Long Form Background Check. This background check covers everything from the time that you turned 18.
You can find this here.
When you get fingerprinted by HR in the first days, this is what they are printing you for. The more educated that you are about what the FBI says about you, the easier the process will be. This is Gospel to the airlines. Period.

Get a copy of your State, and National Driving Records. State can be obtained by going to the website of your State MVD and paying a minor fee. Pay it, and get it.
National Driving Record can be obtained here.

Lastly, disclose every single thing that appears on all of those documents. Period. They will see it. All of it. And you want to see it, and disclose it before they do. You will get bounced in training (EVEN IF IT WAS something that happened 20 years ago, was set aside or expunged,) and it shows up on any of those docs.

You do not want to be in a position where you get hired, go through 3 weeks of training, and get bounced one day before your oral for something that happened 20, or even 2, years ago.

If anything, over disclose.
Click to expand...

This is the best advice here, and I 100% agree. You want to know what the various government agencies are going to say about you before someone else asks.
 
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GX said:
Lastly, disclose every single thing that appears on all of those documents. Period. They will see it. All of it. And you want to see it, and disclose it before they do. You will get bounced in training (EVEN IF IT WAS something that happened 20 years ago, was set aside or expunged,) and it shows up on any of those docs.
Click to expand...

I read somewhere, maybe even on this site, that sometimes employers will consult private companies that specialize in taking screenshots of driving records(maybe the NDR?) in past time frames. So even if you pull your and it's clean, potential employers could possibly see older tickets or citations from the past as indicated with these private companies, even though your current driving record shows up clean.

Any truth to this or is it just horse talk?
 
at1024 said:
I read somewhere, maybe even on this site, that sometimes employers will consult private companies that specialize in taking screenshots of driving records(maybe the NDR?) in past time frames. So even if you pull your and it's clean, potential employers could possibly see older tickets or citations from the past as indicated with these private companies, even though your current driving record shows up clean.

Any truth to this or is it just horse talk?
Click to expand...

I would go with highly unlikely. Screenshots of past driving records? How would they 1. Know who was applying. 2. Know what timeframe to search for. 3. Have access to that much database. 4. Have access to a database that most states don't keep. 5.Have access to the Federal NDR.
Further, "potential employers" aren't going to dig this hard. A company that has hired you and offered you a Conditional could, but most of them do this stuff in house. Far less expensive.

Most states keep things on file for 3-5 years and gut them. The only way to find your ENITRE state history is to go through the State Police, request a copy, fingerprint, and wait 3-6 weeks.

UNDERSTAND.... IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS NOT ON THE FBI LONGFORM. So, there is NO LOOPHOLE.

I'm speaking in general, here, AT...

What I will say is this; If you know that you maybe, possibly, had an interaction with a court, go to THAT courthouse and pull whatever is there. If it doesn't show up, but you know about it, disclose it.

Where people are getting hung up on this is at AirlineApps, and the following addendums. AirlineApps asks for 10 years. The addendum clearly states "EVER"; "Have you EVER been convicted of a crime...." There's a legality there, that I'm not going to address and most of you know what that is, but the bottom line is really simple; over-disclosure will save you time hassle, and worry.
 
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at1024 said:
I read somewhere, maybe even on this site, that sometimes employers will consult private companies that specialize in taking screenshots of driving records(maybe the NDR?) in past time frames. So even if you pull your and it's clean, potential employers could possibly see older tickets or citations from the past as indicated with these private companies, even though your current driving record shows up clean.

Any truth to this or is it just horse talk?
Click to expand...

Most likely no. How would they do it? Pull the FAA database every month and say "hmmmm let's see here, these 10,000 guys are qualified and might apply to the airlines- we better run a query across all 50 states for all 10,000 of these guys and see if any of them got in trouble, so that we can later sell this info to an airline."

Not going to happen.....
 
PilotDefenseAttorney said:
As has been discussed here and elsewhere, I can't give you specific legal advice. What I can do is tell you about an earlier case. Pilot was stopped while driving and charged with DUI. Charges were later dismissed. Pilot's attorney advised pilot to "treat it like it never happened." Based on that advice, Pilot did not disclose the charge on a medical application. FAA later discovered the omission. The pilot was violated for lying on the application for medical certificate and an "emergency" revocation followed. Take it for what it's worth. (Just for the record the pilot in this case was never my client).
Click to expand...

The problem is that different states, and even different courts within a state, do different things with DUIs (and other traffic offenses). Some of those can result in a "no report" event but most do. And attorneys who handle these cases are not usually particularly savvy about the FAA ramifications.

For example, some years ago, a friend called me because of a reckless driving charge. The DA offered, and my friend's attorney highly recommended a "great deal." Fortunately my friend was concerned about the FAA ramifications and called me. At my friend's request I called my friend's attorney and explained how the "great deal" could have negative consequences for my friend's career. I suggested an alternative which, being more "severe" in the eyes of the DA, was readily agreed to. No FAA report required. Not under 61.15 and not on the medical application. (BTW, it was a great deal — if you weren't worried about the FAA/carreer issue)

More recently, I was asked to review something post-court proceedings. Turns out in that case there was also no need to report it to the FAA but it took a review of the court and administrative records to give that advice.
 
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