z987k
Well-Known Member
Even a skeleton or two is good these days.
Pay 2 Fly program
- Thread starter Kels Hughes
- Start date
I wouldn't suggest the program and I certainly have bad blood with the people at EagleJet.
I would sooner eat the poop I just scooped up in the back yard than ever suggest anything other than AVOID AVOID AVOID.
Yeah, I hold professional grudges and I remember the screw job they put on Jetcareers.com by bullying one of our career fair attendees at the last minute.
I would sooner eat the poop I just scooped up in the back yard than ever suggest anything other than AVOID AVOID AVOID.
Yeah, I hold professional grudges and I remember the screw job they put on Jetcareers.com by bullying one of our career fair attendees at the last minute.
Toobdrvr
Estrellas Asesino
Here's my personal experience:
While working at "A certain 135 operator", I had the opportunity to fly with several P2F guys/gals. In summary, the foreigners were outstanding. This was a necessary step in their career progression back home. The family farm was on the line. They showed up everyday prepared, enthusiastic, and willing to work and learn. I truly enjoyed flying with them.
Then there were the Americans. MOST of them showed up on day one with an attitude of "I am the customer, you work for me, I'm not doing anything I don't want to do when I feel like doing it, and you guys are stupid for actually doing this whole flying thing the hard way" (actually had one tell me this once). The ink on their CPL was still wet and like most of us at that point, couldn't aviate their way out of a paper bag. They didn't want to help load. They didn't want to do paperwork. They weren't interested in learning how to do the job. Their solution to not doing something they didn't want to do was to simply whip out their checkbook and, voila! This attitude came out in everything they did and probably still does...
Hence, the treatment. One of them actually spent the night in Rexburg, ID in order to contemplate who the actual PIC is on our flight...
There were, of course, exceptions.
I get why some guys don't want to instruct. It's hard work. It's monotonous at times. It doesn't pay well. It does, however, require a truly deeper understanding of what we do and why. I for one enjoyed the experience and truly feel I emerged a much better aviator for it. I don't believe you can buy that...
While working at "A certain 135 operator", I had the opportunity to fly with several P2F guys/gals. In summary, the foreigners were outstanding. This was a necessary step in their career progression back home. The family farm was on the line. They showed up everyday prepared, enthusiastic, and willing to work and learn. I truly enjoyed flying with them.
Then there were the Americans. MOST of them showed up on day one with an attitude of "I am the customer, you work for me, I'm not doing anything I don't want to do when I feel like doing it, and you guys are stupid for actually doing this whole flying thing the hard way" (actually had one tell me this once). The ink on their CPL was still wet and like most of us at that point, couldn't aviate their way out of a paper bag. They didn't want to help load. They didn't want to do paperwork. They weren't interested in learning how to do the job. Their solution to not doing something they didn't want to do was to simply whip out their checkbook and, voila! This attitude came out in everything they did and probably still does...
Hence, the treatment. One of them actually spent the night in Rexburg, ID in order to contemplate who the actual PIC is on our flight...
There were, of course, exceptions.
I get why some guys don't want to instruct. It's hard work. It's monotonous at times. It doesn't pay well. It does, however, require a truly deeper understanding of what we do and why. I for one enjoyed the experience and truly feel I emerged a much better aviator for it. I don't believe you can buy that...
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Maurus
The Great Gazoo
Ah. So that's what happened. Not surprised in the least.
z987k
Well-Known Member
That's so awesome. And there's no way there was so much freight out of Rexburg you actually had to bump him.
Toobdrvr
Estrellas Asesino
Nope. There just wasn't enough volume for the work and his ego...
Pachong
Well-Known Member
guywhoflies
Y'NO WUT IM SAYIN
Another great thing that comes with being a CFI is the opportunity to network your ass off. I have seen guys and gals sit around the FBO, talk to various jet and turboprop pilots coming in and out, and then parlay that into a job at far less than 1500 hours. I doubt you would have the same situation at a "P2F" operation. In fact, I bet you would be looked down upon by the pilots you are flying right seat for. The vast majority of pilots firmly believe in paying your dues building time (CFI, skydive pilot, freight dog, etc.) as opposed to just paying to build flight time.
Also, it is a good thing that pilots don't "get into anything big such as an A320 or 737" with only 250 hours. At that point, said pilots would be more of a liability than an asset to the operation. This type of situation would force the PIC to also play the part of CFI while trying to safely transport >135 people from point to point. That is a scary scenario.
I compare 250 hour pilots who think they are ready for "big" planes to the 16-year-old kid who thinks he/she knows everything. After a few more years and more life experience, these same people who were 16 going on 30 look back and realize how wrong they were. I think the same can be said for pilots who just want to fly big iron as soon as possible. By flight instructing, flying freight, or joining the regionals, these pilots gain valuable experience before they jump into bigger aircraft. I would venture to say most look back and appreciate the climb from 250 hour pilot to right seat in an A320 or 737.
flyingbum
Needz Re-Edjamacayshun
Ohh LAWDY!
I knew obama would hook me up!
I gets ma check on the first too. PRAISE JESUS
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
@Kels Hughes
I am also a person that has flown with and been around the Pay 2 Play crowd. I have personally seen Americans fail out of training that had a background with Pay 2 Play. They are looked down on and
typically are there since their skill set is lacking.
Most of the people doing the P2P were Koreans that I believe did not have to pay for the flying. Their future employer would sponsor them in the program till they got to 1000 hours. They need the program because they don't have the infrastructure to build time on their own.
Ultimately these programs introduce some safety concerns. You are a customer. As a result you will be treated as a customer. That means it would be harder to be fired from your job. Training will be easy in comparison to a proper employee. You ultimately will not be held to a high standard like you should. .............
I am also a person that has flown with and been around the Pay 2 Play crowd. I have personally seen Americans fail out of training that had a background with Pay 2 Play. They are looked down on and
typically are there since their skill set is lacking.
Most of the people doing the P2P were Koreans that I believe did not have to pay for the flying. Their future employer would sponsor them in the program till they got to 1000 hours. They need the program because they don't have the infrastructure to build time on their own.
Ultimately these programs introduce some safety concerns. You are a customer. As a result you will be treated as a customer. That means it would be harder to be fired from your job. Training will be easy in comparison to a proper employee. You ultimately will not be held to a high standard like you should. .............
Why comment if you "don't know?" Gulfstream's pay-for-training was a vile aberration. The only connection today's Silver has with Gulfstream was the purchase of some assets after GIA folded. There's not even any GIA management left at Silver. I suppose you also think AirTran is just a "beard" for Valujet.
Pipes
Well-Known Member
The curse of the movie poster. Is there anyone from the movie poster still left?
Never saw the sense in putting your weakest pilot in charge of training.
moxiepilot
Well-Known Member
Because, like it or not I am entitled to my opinion, informed or not. I don't follow the connection with GIA or Silver because of its relationship to GIA and what GIA represents. I don't know if it still has a pay to play program because I don't support these programs. Rememeber TAB Express? Key Lime?
I know enough about these type of programs and people that relate to them that when they try to "rebrand" they are just finding a different approach to a ponzi scheme.
And, overall I think that an important point is being overlooked here: the JC community is attempting to point out an answer to the OPs question; generally speaking, P2P is bad for the overall industry, bad for the pilot in obtaining essential skills in a career progression, and if you include previous P2P programs - probably bad for the pilot's wallet.
I have yet to see a P2P program stay in business which has not screwed the pilot financially. And, if you'll excuse me, the reason why I equate Silver with GIA is because the pilots I know who have Silver on their resume were former GIA pilots. They all have one thing in common to me - I don't want to fly with any of them. I haven't met one Silver pilot that isn't a douchebag, thinks of themself as God's gift to aviation, and has poor skills, both decision making and aviation. So I'm biased based on my empirical experiences.
Let me take a stab at something. You're an employee of Silver, yes? I have a 50/50 shot here, but I am curious.
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