Application question - Dual/SIC

RR55

RR55

Well-Known Member
Filling out an online application, would I could DUAL (say in a C172) as SIC for an application purpose? The application has no spot to put dual time, only, PIC, SIC, Instructor. For some reason I'm drawing a blank this morning on this, and I want to say no, DUAL is not SIC.
 
Do you mean dual time as in you were the student? Or dual as the instructor? If as the instructor, put instructor time. Otherwise, don't try to put dual received in the PIC, SIC, or instructor columns. If you're talking about airlineapps.com, their PIC means time which there was no dual given or received. SIC time, is strictly where you logged SIC in a crew environment.
 
SIC should only be logged in an environment where the aircraft flown REQUIRES (either by certification or insurance) a second pilot.
 
BobDDuck said:
SIC should only be logged in an environment where the aircraft flown REQUIRES (either by certification or insurance) a second pilot.
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I don't THINK insurance reasons are sufficient to log SIC. I believe either the airplane requires it all the time, or you are in an aircraft such as a 1900 where the PIC will have the limitation "SIC required", or you are operating 135 and your certificate requires it. Someone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly certain those are the only times.
 
Pilotdude3407 said:
I don't THINK insurance reasons are sufficient to log SIC. I believe either the airplane requires it all the time, or you are in an aircraft such as a 1900 where the PIC will have the limitation "SIC required", or you are operating 135 and your certificate requires it. Someone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly certain those are the only times.
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This is spot on. Being required by insurance does not obviate your need per the FARs. Either you're required to be there from the TCDS of the aircraft, or by the operation (135 for instance in something like a B1900 or SA227).

Just because the PIC may hold a single pilot type, does not mean that an SIC can not be used, and that said SIC could not log the time as such.
 
Notice that some applications have specified rules for what PIC and SIC mean. The FAA rules for logging flight time are not always used.

As an example I believe pilot credentials has you log dual under SIC.
 
Maurus said:
Notice that some applications have specified rules for what PIC and SIC mean. The FAA rules for logging flight time are not always used.

As an example I believe pilot credentials has you log dual under SIC.
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The classic example is PIC/SIC in the 121 world. There continues to be the legality argument over whether the FO can log PIC if he is PIC typed and manipulating the controls. I think we all agree that companies want to know how much time you have as the person who signs the release and if you show up to an interview or get hired while using the false pretense of manipulating the controls vs being the guy who signed the release, you will be shown the door.
 
JustinS said:
Do you mean dual time as in you were the student? Or dual as the instructor? If as the instructor, put instructor time. Otherwise, don't try to put dual received in the PIC, SIC, or instructor columns. If you're talking about airlineapps.com, their PIC means time which there was no dual given or received. SIC time, is strictly where you logged SIC in a crew environment.
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Just to clarify my statement. SIC logged in a crew environment strictly where an SIC was legally required for the operation.
 
Pilotdude3407 said:
The classic example is PIC/SIC in the 121 world. There continues to be the legality argument over whether the FO can log PIC if he is PIC typed and manipulating the controls. I think we all agree that companies want to know how much time you have as the person who signs the release and if you show up to an interview or get hired while using the false pretense of manipulating the controls vs being the guy who signed the release, you will be shown the door.
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What if you work at a 121 where no one signs a release? Everything is agreed upon by initializing the ACARS, which requires both the FO and Captain passwords.

(I know where I, and just about everybody else on this site, stand on 121 PIC. I'm just playing devil's advocate)
 
B767 said:
What if you work at a 121 where no one signs a release? Everything is agreed upon by initializing the ACARS, which requires both the FO and Captain passwords.

(I know where I, and just about everybody else on this site, stand on 121 PIC. I'm just playing devil's advocate)
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Per 121 regs, there has to be a designated PIC of the flight. How you do the specifics is your company's business, but a single individual is still designated as PIC and that persons logs the time as such.
 
B767 said:
What if you work at a 121 where no one signs a release? Everything is agreed upon by initializing the ACARS, which requires both the FO and Captain passwords.

(I know where I, and just about everybody else on this site, stand on 121 PIC. I'm just playing devil's advocate)
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Mine does the same thing but in our FOM it specifically states the Captain is in command. The company I worked for previously also had that in the FOM. "Singing the release" is synonymous with being in charge, the PIC, it's used interchangeably.
 
B767 said:
What if you work at a 121 where no one signs a release? Everything is agreed upon by initializing the ACARS, which requires both the FO and Captain passwords.
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I would guess that the captain is certifying PIC Authority and FAR117 compliance with their password and the FO is certifying FAR117 compliance with theirs.
 
BobDDuck said:
I would guess that the captain is certifying PIC Authority and FAR117 compliance with their password and the FO is certifying FAR117 compliance with theirs.
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Yup. The only reason the FO requires a password now to initialize the FMS is because of 117. At least that is why XJT added it.
 
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