Am I a "passenger" if...

mshunter said:
The only thing that makes this fuzzy is the fact that no ones log book is getting signed as instruction. If you are both logging the time, you're both on the hook. If something happens, you could both screwed because of your previous comments. If I were a fed, found you two in the airplane, you in the right seat, and your dad in the left seat, I'd get real real suspicious. See my point?
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You would be a crappy fed then....

FAA "Hi I'm here to ramp check, who is PIC"

Guy "I am".

FAA "Let me see AROW and your medical and pilot cert"

Guy "Ok"

FAA "Let me see your log book"

Guy "You will have to formally request it, I keep it at home."

FAA "Why were you in the right seat?"

Guy "There is no limitation on my certificate limiting me to a seat"

FAA "Ok"

If it goes farther than that, I would report the inspector to the FSDO.

Really, @mshunter ... You want to dig this far when it's clear who the PIC is. He didn't state he was giving instruction. It's not the FAAs business whether he logs the time. If he doesn't need it for currency or for certificate flight time requirements, he doesn't need to put pen to paper for the flight. As long as the student doesn't log it and the acting PIC pays...
 
Bonanzaman said:
No. As I said multiple times, neither of us are worried about logging this time. As far as 'if you were a fed', I'm not really worried about that as I know for a fact there is nothing shady going on and we are both legal and safe.

None of my "previous comments" admitted or alluded to anything illegal being done. I think you just don't want to let this go, but I think we should.
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I'm not having a hard time with this at all. I am suggesting you be careful, and don't go blabbing your mouth about it. That's the part that worries me.
 
cencal83406 said:
You would be a crappy fed then....

FAA "Hi I'm here to ramp check, who is PIC"

Guy "I am".

FAA "Let me see AROW and your medical and pilot cert"

Guy "Ok"

FAA "Let me see your log book"

Guy "You will have to formally request it, I keep it at home."

FAA "Why were you in the right seat?"

Guy "There is no limitation on my certificate limiting me to a seat"

FAA "Ok"

If it goes farther than that, I would report the inspector to the FSDO.

Really, @mshunter ... You want to dig this far when it's clear who the PIC is. He didn't state he was giving instruction. It's not the FAAs business whether he logs the time. If he doesn't need it for currency or for certificate flight time requirements, he doesn't need to put pen to paper for the flight. As long as the student doesn't log it and the acting PIC pays...
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SMH. I'm out.
 
mshunter said:
I'm not having a hard time with this at all. I am suggesting you be careful, and don't go blabbing your mouth about it. That's the part that worries me.
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"Hey, I'm doing something I'm pretty sure is legal. Am I right?"

Answers

"Ok it is legal then, that's what I thought. Thanks for the help guys!"

/thread
 
A couple of issues are getting debated here

1st: student pilot carrying a pilot rated passenger. Can't be done. If a pilot is in the airplane (regardless of which seat) and a student pilot is at the controls, then the PPL or CPL pilot is still acting as PIC. Regardless of what their intended relationship is (who is paying for the flight, owns the airplane, ect), the FAA will hold the pilot rated passenger responsible.

2nd: Non CFI rated pilots giving instruction. Totally fine as long as the PIC is current and legal and the flight is not logged as dual received. We often assume that any kind of instruction = dual received, but this is not the case. Can a avionics tech go flying with a client to help the pilot understand how to use his shiny new GPS unit? Sure can! Can an experienced tailwheel pilot go flying with me to give me some pointers on my wheel landings (assuming I already have my TW endorsement)? Of course. Can any pilot allow a non trained passenger to fly the plane in cruise? Happens all the time.

In all of these scenarios, the pilot is PIC and the other person is a "passenger" in the eyes of the FAA.

3rd: Non CFI rated pilots giving "instruction" to a student pilot. This one gets sticky. If you or the student log any of this as dual given/dual received, expect the FAA to throw the book at you. I'm not even sure the student can not even log the time spent manipulating the controls. If the PPL rated pilot allows the student pilot to fly the plane and an accident or incident happens, then you can expect the FAA to look very closely at whether the rated pilot was acting as a CFI without the proper license.

4th: holding out. As long as this kind of flying is limited to close friends and family, the FAA will leave you alone.


"My dad is a student pilot and I'm a Comm SEL pilot but not a CFI. Can I get into any trouble by letting him fly the plane?"

Not really.

Make sure you both understand who the PIC is and know that if anything happens during the time he is on the controls, it's still on your head.
 
cencal83406 said:
Shaking your head? Because you don't know what you are talking about. Wow. Try picking up a FAR/AIM once in a while.
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No, shaking my head because you're throwing around insults, acting likena child, and what I'm doing is pointing out the fact that if I were a fed, it would look suspicious, but you seem to have a problem with an opinion, so I shook my head and decided to punch out of the thread. Is that clear enough for you now? Or would you like to continue this circle jerk over something as miniscule as differing opinions? I can go all night. I just poured myself a stiff drink.

Do some research. There have been people busted for this kind of thing. All I basically said was be careful.
 
Bonanzaman said:
No, you did say it was "very very dumb", that I was "blabbing" (about something legal btw), and you never responded to others' points or cited references, just gave anecdotal evidence.
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Because the way it came across to me was you were asking if you were a passenger, NOT PIC. So it sounds as if you are trying to justify breaking a reg knowingly.
 
mshunter said:
No, shaking my head because you're throwing around insults, acting likena child, and what I'm doing is pointing out the fact that if I were a fed, it would look suspicious, but you seem to have a problem with an opinion, so I shook my head and decided to punch out of the thread. Is that clear enough for you now? Or would you like to continue this circle jerk over something as miniscule as differing opinions? I can go all night. I just poured myself a stiff drink.

Do some research. There have been people busted for this kind of thing. All I basically said was be careful.
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Really? It'd look suspicious if two people got out of a 172? Because that's all anyone else sees or knows.
 
mshunter said:
Because the way it came across to me was you were asking if you were a passenger, NOT PIC. So it sounds as if you are trying to justify breaking a reg knowingly.
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I was looking for a definition. I'm not trying to game the system, I thought I made that clear. I made several points repeatedly which you totally ignored. I'm almost insulted you assume I'm that low of a person. I mean, if I were wouldn't I have left this question unasked?

The only way a reg would be broken is if...I logged dual given? He logged any time? How many times did I say neither of us care about the time?

If an airspace reg is busted or metal is bent? I take responsibility right? I did say that was the situation.

You're being ridiculous saying I want to break a reg knowingly. I have no need to do so, it is in fact my desire to NOT do so.

Enjoy your drinks.
 
mshunter said:
No, shaking my head because you're throwing around insults, acting likena child, and what I'm doing is pointing out the fact that if I were a fed, it would look suspicious, but you seem to have a problem with an opinion, so I shook my head and decided to punch out of the thread. Is that clear enough for you now? Or would you like to continue this circle jerk over something as miniscule as differing opinions? I can go all night. I just poured myself a stiff drink.

Do some research. There have been people busted for this kind of thing. All I basically said was be careful.
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What exactly do you mean "this kind of thing" ?

And what exactly is suspicious?

You have no room for your opinion in a thread based on facts. There is no gray area here.
 
Bonanzaman said:
I am a commercial pilot sitting in the right seat of a 172 with a student pilot during their practice?

61.89 says a student pilot cannot carry passengers, but I am also certificated to fly a 172 from either seat. Logging could become fuzzy, but that's not my concern, just the legality of a student pilot flying with a commercial pilot sitting next to him.

I've always believed this to not be a problem but I am having trouble finding the FAA's definition of a passenger in this type of situation.
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Yeah, well, if you really think it's his (their) practice, you have a problem. To paraphrase the Press Secretary of a few year's back, "What the President meant to say was, "During my flight with the student pilot, the student pilot was not able to log any hours because he was not PIC. I was PIC."
 
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