Am I a "passenger" if...

mshunter said:
FAA "So, who was at the controls before you buried the nose wheel on the bounced landing?"

You "Uhh, Uhh?"

Or

"So, who was at the controls when you violated (insert airspace here)"

"Uhh, Uhhh!?!"

Had it been a CFI, you'd likely get your slap on the wrist. But, since you don't, they'll probably throw the book at you. And if you lie about it and get caught, it'll be even worse.
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That sounds like the exact same risk as any other time I'm PIC right?
 
Bonanzaman said:
That sounds like the exact same risk as any other time I'm PIC right?
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Nope. There have been a few cases where guys have had their pilot certificates revoked because they were doing almost exactly what you are doing and had either an accident or incident. Up until that point, everything was fine. Do something dumb and get the feds involved on your own, and you might either get a sit down and talking to, or a 709 ride. Do something dumb and have a "student" in the left seat, it looks suspicious, and you WILL be violated for sure. They'd start with the catch all 91.13, and go from there.
 
Whose plane is it? There are always insurance stipulations about whose butt is in the left seat... No matter who is doing the "flying"....
 
I appreciate the input. As I said, I'm not worried about being able to log the time, I'm not worried about him screwing up the airplane (I'm talking about my dad, I'm more worried about his well being)and I trust his instructor that he knows what he is doing enough to fly on his own. I also trust my own abilities from the right seat.

This is a bonding thing for me and my dad. I always understood it was legal but wanted to be sure. I am assured now after the comments here and in further research that it IS legal as long as I am responsible as PIC, pay my share, and everything is logged properly. That was my concern.

As far as the points you bring up, as PIC I am aware of airspace and safe landing conditions, I would always take the controls to make sure regulations are not broken and metal is not bent. If something does happen I would be responsible for that and I would accept it like I would any other flight where a reg was busted or metal was bent.
 
Bonanzaman said:
Well, I'm not instructing. If it's legal, and it's safe (I am proficient and comfortable flying from the right seat), what about it is dumb?
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It's not dumb. You can fly from wherever you want. Just make sure you are comfortable. Your instincts are different from that side.

When I was going through training there was a (minor) incident where two time builders (both instrument rated) were flying. They were going to eventually get their CFIs. So one decide to fly his leg from the right seat to "get used to it" before starting cfi training. He ended up botching the landing and pulled the mixture instead of throttle. The guy in the left seat tried to take over and go around but the mixtures were dead...so it was a haaaaarrrddd landing.

My point is; for your safety, know what you're getting into and be prepared.
 
Bonanzaman said:
I appreciate the input. As I said, I'm not worried about being able to log the time, I'm not worried about him screwing up the airplane (I'm talking about my dad, I'm more worried about his well being)and I trust his instructor that he knows what he is doing enough to fly on his own. I also trust my own abilities from the right seat.

This is a bonding thing for me and my dad. I always understood it was legal but wanted to be sure. I am assured now after the comments here and in further research that it IS legal as long as I am responsible as PIC, pay my share, and everything is logged properly. That was my concern.

As far as the points you bring up, as PIC I am aware of airspace and safe landing conditions, I would always take the controls to make sure regulations are not broken and metal is not bent. If something does happen I would be responsible for that and I would accept it like I would any other flight where a reg was busted or metal was bent.
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then stop worrying and have fun with pops...
 
Derg said:
Go fly. But he can't log anything as he's not certificated. You're PIC.

However, I might be a little overdramatic, but I think I'd review who is paying for what as you don't want to end up in a "135 1/2" situation where he's essentially paying you (covering the costs of the airplane rental) to fly him around.
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I don't think this fits the 134.5 profile, since its his dad and not someone else. From all I've heard, unless there's some other shady backdealing going on, the feds don't really care if you're flying your immediate family around. The things to be worried about here are going to be insurance and FBO rental agreements, both of which will usually stipulate that the PIC has to be in the left seat. I've personally witnessed people lose their rental privileges from the FBO for doing things like this, as FBO's have their CFI's on their insurance, but you would not be, and lawsuits could get really messy.

Of course, if its your airplane, you wouldn't worry about the FBO, but check with the insurance at least.
 
cencal83406 said:
Wow, a guy flies from the right seat and people flip out. If you can't safely fly an airplane from the right seat, CFI or not, turn in that certificate and stay out of my airspace.
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It's not the flying from the right seat. It's what's going on in the left seat, and then talking about it here in public.
 
mshunter said:
It's not the flying from the right seat. It's what's going on in the left seat, and then talking about it here in public.
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Nothing is going on in the left seat.

It's a student pilot being allowed to "sit" in the seat and the PIC is sitting in the right seat.

Having the student take the controls is no more illegal in that seat in this situation than it was for me to let my dad fly the plane I was in... I'm no instructor, but I let my family member take the controls because I analyzed the risk of the situation and determined it could be done legally and safely.

The only difference is I was sitting in the left seat at the time.
 
mshunter said:
Then why ask the question?
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I wasn't sure. I am now partially thanks to this thread, despite several posters seeming to be in a hurry to find me guilty of some wrongdoing.

You have continued to disagree with this even though it's been shown to be legal and safe? What EXACTLY is your argument against this? You never responded to the points I made earlier or responded to the others who claimed this to be a legal practice? Why are you disagreeing with the consensus on the board? Why would you admonish me for bringing it up on a public forum as if I was admitting to illegal things?

Once again, if it is legal and safe, why would this be a problem? I feel like this should have been an open and shut thread, I'm a little surprised at what it has turned into.
 
Bonanzaman said:
Which is totally legal...
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cencal83406 said:
Nothing is going on in the left seat.

It's a student pilot being allowed to "sit" in the seat and the PIC is sitting in the right seat.

Having the student take the controls is no more illegal in that seat in this situation than it was for me to let my dad fly the plane I was in... I'm no instructor, but I let my family member take the controls because I analyzed the risk of the situation and determined it could be done legally and safely.

The only difference is I was sitting in the left seat at the time.
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The only thing that makes this fuzzy is the fact that no ones log book is getting signed as instruction. If you are both logging the time, you're both on the hook. If something happens, you could both screwed because of your previous comments. If I were a fed, found you two in the airplane, you in the right seat, and your dad in the left seat, I'd get real real suspicious. See my point?

Edit: P.S. I've been to NTSB hearings for people that have run ins with the feds. It's never pretty. Like I said, it's one of those things that people do, people just don't talk about it on an internet forum, in public.
 
mshunter said:
The only thing that makes this fuzzy is the fact that no ones log book is getting signed as instruction. If you are both logging the time, you're both on the hook. If something happens, you could both screwed because of your previous comments. If I were a fed, found you two in the airplane, you in the right seat, and your dad in the left seat, I'd get real real suspicious. See my point?
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No. As I said multiple times, neither of us are worried about logging this time. As far as 'if you were a fed', I'm not really worried about that as I know for a fact there is nothing shady going on and we are both legal and safe.

None of my "previous comments" admitted or alluded to anything illegal being done. I think you just don't want to let this go, but I think we should.
 
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