Am I a "passenger" if...

Bonanzaman

Bonanzaman

Well-Known Member
I am a commercial pilot sitting in the right seat of a 172 with a student pilot during their practice?

61.89 says a student pilot cannot carry passengers, but I am also certificated to fly a 172 from either seat. Logging could become fuzzy, but that's not my concern, just the legality of a student pilot flying with a commercial pilot sitting next to him.

I've always believed this to not be a problem but I am having trouble finding the FAA's definition of a passenger in this type of situation.
 
The answer is, are you acting as an instructor/giving dual to this student. If so you're fine, if not, no.
 
Well, he's a student so it's not PIC. But it's not "solo" either. But you're not conducting "Dual Given" as you're not a CFI.

Basically, you're PIC and he's got a some non-loggable time and you carry all responsibilities of the PIC and now you have to think about who's going to pay for it.
 
stormchaser said:
When in doubt, wait it out. He's only, what...60 hours away from giving a "no questions asked" ride? 50?! 40?! 12?

The FAA does not take this lightly if they disagree with you...

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/students/crosscountry/articles/2878.html
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Quote: The FAA sought to revoke his pilot's certificate. He argued to the NTSB judge that he was a very skilled fixed-wing pilot and a very skilled helicopter pilot, and the fact that he did not have a helicopter rating (rotary-wing) on his private certificate should not result in a violation against him.

This is why we have "legal counsel".
 
Derg said:
Well, he's a student so it's not PIC. But it's not "solo" either. But you're not conducting "Dual Given" as you're not a CFI.

Basically, you're PIC and he's got a some non-loggable time and you carry all responsibilities of the PIC and now you have to think about who's going to pay for it.
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Ok this was my understanding and after some further research this seems to be the case.

I was responsible for the flight, not giving instruction, not taking money, and neither of us are worried about being able to log the time.

Thanks.
 
If he's not at least a private pilot then no passengers unless you are instructing and loging "dual given".

If there is a cfi onboard acting as pic and loging dual given with the student, then there can be a passenger in back.

Edit: unless you are acting pic. But as @Derg said, then the student can't log anything without you having a cfi
 
Derg said:
Well, he's a student so it's not PIC. But it's not "solo" either. But you're not conducting "Dual Given" as you're not a CFI.

Basically, you're PIC and he's got a some non-loggable time and you carry all responsibilities of the PIC and now you have to think about who's going to pay for it.
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This

But if he's paying for the flight then I wouldn't want you tagging along loging the time ;)
 
jgheggie said:
If he's not at least a private pilot then no passengers unless you are instructing and loging "dual given".

If there is a cfi onboard acting as pic and loging dual given with the student, then there can be a passenger in back.

Edit: unless you are acting pic. But as @Derg said, then the student can't log anything without you having a cfi
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Well if he's not logging and I'm the pic then it's more like I'm carrying a passenger and he's along for the ride.

Ok, just saw you're edit. That's exactly what's happening.
 
isn't this holding out? Pre-private pilot paying for the flight and non cfi logging the time...
 
Lol whoa call off the dogs. I was talking about flying with my dad, not trying to run an illegal business here.
 
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Go fly. But he can't log anything as he's not certificated. You're PIC.

However, I might be a little overdramatic, but I think I'd review who is paying for what as you don't want to end up in a "135 1/2" situation where he's essentially paying you (covering the costs of the airplane rental) to fly him around.
 
Derg said:
Go fly. But he can't log anything as he's not certificated. You're PIC.

However, I might be a little overdramatic, but I think I'd review who is paying for what as you don't want to end up in a "135 1/2" situation where he's essentially paying you (covering the costs of the airplane rental) to fly him around.
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Roger.
 
You are doing something very very dumb. Let the instructor do the instruction. Wait till you get your CFI.

I know guys do this kind of stuff all the time. But those that do, usually don't talk about it on an internet forum, in public.
 
mshunter said:
You are doing something very very dumb. Let the instructor do the instruction. Wait till you get your CFI.

I know guys do this kind of stuff all the time. But those that do, usually don't talk about it on an internet forum, in public.
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Not only this....but if the OP doesn't have a cfi then how comfortable will he be in the right seat if he needs to take control on a bad landing. This all just part of good aeronautical decision making.
 
Well, I'm not instructing. If it's legal, and it's safe (I am proficient and comfortable flying from the right seat), what about it is dumb?
 
Bonanzaman said:
Well, I'm not instructing. If it's legal, and it's safe (I am proficient and comfortable flying from the right seat), what about it is dumb?
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FAA "So, who was at the controls before you buried the nose wheel on the bounced landing?"

You "Uhh, Uhh?"

Or

"So, who was at the controls when you violated (insert airspace here)"

"Uhh, Uhhh!?!"

Had it been a CFI, you'd likely get your slap on the wrist. But, since you don't, they'll probably throw the book at you. And if you lie about it and get caught, it'll be even worse.

And if you're not instructing, and he is practicing, then he has you as a passenger. See if you can get a fed to spin it in a way that makes it seem legal.
 
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