Separation for approach clearance?

Cessnaflyer

Cessnaflyer

Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
We came into KMYF last night and there was a layer that made us shoot the approach into 28R. While we were being vectored the controller saw someone orbiting right at the FAF but he was not in contact with them. He was between 400' to 700' below the glideslope capture altitude and had to have been in the clouds with us. Our TIS was going off while we were doing the approach and if I was airline flying we would've been going around.

Is this adequate separation to clear someone for the ILS?
 
As far as ATC is concerned the guy was VFR. They aren't talking to him so they aren't controlling him.
 
If that aircraft wasn't radar identified, his altitude was never verified. So he could've been a few hundred feet below you, at the same altitude as you, or holding at 17,500 feet. If he has the wrong altimeter setting, his altitude can be drastically off. There was no loss of separation of the controller's part. It sounds like he gave you the information and indicated altitude of the aircraft and it is up to you, as a pilot, to either continue on the approach or decide to break it off before you could possibly conflict with that traffic. 99% of the time, you will be stopped off at least 500 feet above/below the indicated altitude and we are betting that the altitude is close to being accurate.
 
Also there's no prescribed radar minima for VFR > IFR aircraft in Class D and E airspace. I'd have issued traffic as early as possible, and if it was looking serious I'd issue a safety alert.

I have also, with the pilot's concurrence, delayed the approach vector/clearance until after the VFR traffic has moved off the final.
 
Thanks for the replies. I remember reading that ATC was supposed to separate IFR from VFR but I didn't know how far that went in protection.
 
Maybe within B and C airspace. Outside that, they don't "separate" at all. ATC's job in radar environment is to separate IFR from IFR. Anytime you are in VFR conditions (even while on an IFR clearance/flight plan), see and avoid is the rule of the day. Point out's of VFR traffic are a courtesy for a radar controller outside B or C. Keep your head on a swivel and your eyes out the window.
 
Scary learning lesson then. If his transponder was correct he had to have been in the clouds with us. So what's the point of a mode C veil if it is incorrect altitude information?
 
IFR/VFR sep only occurs in class B. Not even class C. I can't separate you from an aircraft whose intentions I don't know. The mode C veil exists because, yes by and large mode C is correct. Even if it is outside tolerances it's 300 feet off. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen verified grossly inaccurate mode C and all but one were showing more than 1000 feet BELOW the ground.

Always be wary because not everyone plays by the rules. Ultimately YOU are PIC. If you're concerned, ask to come back out until the vfr is gone. Plenty of planes end up in bad spots while being perfectly legal and otherwise safe.
 
I don't believe the mode C info would be off by much. And the mode C veil is designed to try to keep traffic close to busy airspace visible in a manner useful to ATC. The problem is the rules don't require the separation standard you are looking for. ATC takes the mode C veil info and can only give you an advisory, time permitting. Sometimes I think our TCAS and TIS has gone farther than the FAA. The FAA is still in the dark ages with technology and regulations and you have a fancy TIS system to show you where the traffic is. All you can do is use your technology to keep yourself safe. Don't expect the system to do anything more than what it was designed to do 40 years ago. Or 80 years ago.
 
genot said:
IFR/VFR sep only occurs in class B. Not even class C. I can't separate you from an aircraft whose intentions I don't know. The mode C veil exists because, yes by and large mode C is correct. Even if it is outside tolerances it's 300 feet off. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen verified grossly inaccurate mode C and all but one were showing more than 1000 feet BELOW the ground.

Always be wary because not everyone plays by the rules. Ultimately YOU are PIC. If you're concerned, ask to come back out until the vfr is gone. Plenty of planes end up in bad spots while being perfectly legal and otherwise safe.
Click to expand...
Thank you.

We continued the approach and monitored the traffic display while keeping about a half scale deflection high to stay away.
 
DE727UPS said:
I don't believe the mode C info would be off by much. And the mode C veil is designed to try to keep traffic close to busy airspace visible in a manner useful to ATC. The problem is the rules don't require the separation standard you are looking for. ATC takes the mode C veil info and can only give you an advisory, time permitting. Sometimes I think our TCAS and TIS has gone farther than the FAA. The FAA is still in the dark ages with technology and regulations and you have a fancy TIS system to show you where the traffic is. All you can do is use your technology to keep yourself safe. Don't expect the system to do anything more than what it was designed to do 40 years ago. Or 80 years ago.
Click to expand...

  1. I was just having the discussion tonight with another controller about technology. He came from a place with STARS radar display. We use ACD which is like a fancy graphical overlay of ARTS IIIE. I've been reading a book about how version one of ARTS III came online in the early 80s. We started thinking of all the places we could name still running ARTS II, which is quite a few.

The conversation began when we were discussing a piece of equipment that uses DOS.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for AF (the maintainers of ATC). When your job description involves modern equipment, Windows 2000 era equipment, DOS era equipment, our pre PATCO syntax laden FDIO, and oh by the way the radar needs fixing and our phone lines just died. I just can't imagine doing that as well as they do.
 
genot said:
  1. I was just having the discussion tonight with another controller about technology. He came from a place with STARS radar display. We use ACD which is like a fancy graphical overlay of ARTS IIIE. I've been reading a book about how version one of ARTS III came online in the early 80s. We started thinking of all the places we could name still running ARTS II, which is quite a few.
The conversation began when we were discussing a piece of equipment that uses DOS.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for AF (the maintainers of ATC). When your job description involves modern equipment, Windows 2000 era equipment, DOS era equipment, our pre PATCO syntax laden FDIO, and oh by the way the radar needs fixing and our phone lines just died. I just can't imagine doing that as well as they do.
Click to expand...
How is ADS-B being implemented with the old systems?
 
When I worked for the FAA at LA Tracon in the mid-80's, the Fdep machine was a ticker tape thing from the 50's. I'm not kidding. I heard they upgraded Flight Data since then to an inkjet. On another note, I rode in a US airways jumpseat from GEG to PHX last week. The US Airways F/O was appalled that Spokane doesn't have PDC's or D-ATIS. He actually gave the ground controller crap for the lack of a PDC. I told him Spokane just got a new high rise control tower (which is true) and can't afford the PDC's. Priceless.....
 
genot said:
Center gets upgrades. Approach doesn't unless it's directly affected. It's a big time trickle down of technology.
Click to expand...
It's amazing it takes so long. I thought it was going to be a quicker transition to something that would seem to be cheaper to maintain as well.
 
DE727UPS said:
Nextgen. Not sure what it is but it must be good.
Click to expand...

It's funny how the agency doesnt change. I hear guys like you talk, sort of knowing where you come from, and realize it's more the same than different from the mid 80s on.

My dad transferred to ATC in the Navy back when the CAA was becoming the FAA. Still has his CTO card from Cubi Point dated 1962. His two biggest wows when he visited the TRACON were a) no shrimp boats and B) the FDIO closely resembled the Commodore 64 we had when I was a kid. Everything else was plainly obvious to a man that hadn't worked traffic in almost 40 years.

I work with a guy from LGA who has a great story about just how little technology we have
 
genot said:
IFR/VFR sep only occurs in class B. Not even class C. I can't separate you from an aircraft whose intentions I don't know. The mode C veil exists because, yes by and large mode C is correct. Even if it is outside tolerances it's 300 feet off. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen verified grossly inaccurate mode C and all but one were showing more than 1000 feet BELOW the ground.

Always be wary because not everyone plays by the rules. Ultimately YOU are PIC. If you're concerned, ask to come back out until the vfr is gone. Plenty of planes end up in bad spots while being perfectly legal and otherwise safe.
Click to expand...

Minor correction, but IFR/VFR radar separation minima in Class C airspace is target resolution or 500ft vertical, excepting wake turbulence:

7110.65

Ch. 7 Section 8. Class C Service− Terminal

7−8−3. SEPARATION

Separate VFR aircraft from IFR aircraft by any one of
the following:

a. Visual separation as specified in para 7−2−1,
Visual Separation, para 7−4−2, Vectors for Visual
Approach, and para 7−6−7, Sequencing.

NOTE−
Issue wake turbulence cautionary advisories in accordance
with para 2−1−20, Wake Turbulence Cautionary


b. 500 feet vertical separation;
c. Target resolution.

NOTE−
Apply the provisions of para 5−5−4, Minima, when wake
turbulence separation is required.
Click to expand...
 
genot said:
It's funny how the agency doesnt change. I hear guys like you talk, sort of knowing where you come from, and realize it's more the same than different from the mid 80s on.

My dad transferred to ATC in the Navy back when the CAA was becoming the FAA. Still has his CTO card from Cubi Point dated 1962. His two biggest wows when he visited the TRACON were a) no shrimp boats and B) the FDIO closely resembled the Commodore 64 we had when I was a kid. Everything else was plainly obvious to a man that hadn't worked traffic in almost 40 years.

I work with a guy from LGA who has a great story about just how little technology we have
Click to expand...

Here at N90 we still have old 90's computers (I think they're either 486's or pentiums) running our IDS4. We're still using ARTS IIIE.

What's sad is, I recently came back from a trip to a third world banana republic, and when I went to visit the tower at the main international airport, the radar room under the tower (I believe its a CERAP type of facility) had a state of the art modern french radar system, with voice activated landline system, and multicolor displays, with all sort of really nice features that I could only dream of having. Goes to show where our goverment's priorities are.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top