Has it come to this?

KLB said:
The same is true with some engineering programs also. It's a "use it or lose it" type deal or the profession has evolved so much to where you don't know it any more. My wife's a former engineer who bailed on it over 10 years ago to become a teacher.
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That's true to an extent I guess, but physics is still physics and the engineering classes I took in the late '90s/early '00s are based on principles that are still true today. I would certainly have to brush up on some things if I decided to get back into the field, and worst case I could probably do grad school for a couple of years. I still have several open offers to go back to the engineering field, and I've been out over seven years now...
 
GypsyPilot said:
That's true to an extent I guess, but physics is still physics and the engineering classes I took in the late '90s/early '00s are based on principles that are still true today. I would certainly have to brush up on some things if I decided to get back into the field, and worst case I could probably do grad school for a couple of years. I still have several open offers to go back to the engineering field, and I've been out over seven years now...
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My engineering started on punch cards and using a slide rule. It's a different game today but obtainable to somewhat keep up.
 
ComplexHiAv8r said:
My engineering started on punch cards and using a slide rule. It's a different game today but obtainable to somewhat keep up.
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Yeah, but I wasn't using punch cards in 2006. The 3D modeling and stress analysis programs are on different revs now, but they're probably not that different than what I was familiar with.

Although I did take Fortran in college, which had the right side columns reserved for punchcard holes or something. From what I understand, they aren't teaching that language at my school anymore!
 
mojo6911 said:
How is an aviation degree any less useful than a French History degree? Secondly, let's say you get an accounting degree, get hired by an airline and are furloughed 10 years later. You are going to be a decade out of practice, and any HR rep worth their salt in the accounting field knows you are going to bail at the first flying job you get offered. This backup degree stuff is nonsense. I got a degree to check a box. I was interested in aviation, so I knew it was something I would finish.
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It isn't. If it was up to me, I'd pass a law that forced colleges to disclose the top 10 degrees in terms of most number of jobs landed and what they paid. Truth is engineering would be near the top. Colleges don't disclose any of this information even though they collect it! Remember, the #1 degree major for a typical 18 yr old is "undeclared." Colleges need to ensure they get people spread out and do everything the college offers. In a perfect world, people would see that aviation degrees, French history, basket weaving, are just a waste of time and money with no real payoff. Imagine if a list was published that showed the most successful college degrees in terms of job placement and salaries. If students then entered only those fields, colleges would lose all the other departments and furlough professors/lecturers/staffers/etc.

About your furlough situation, I would say "it depends." Right after 9/11 type furlough, you knew you'd be out way long-term. However, if you work for someone like Vision Airlines and they close shop, chances are pretty good you are going to get picked up fast at another LCC/Major. This kind of furlough doesn't necessitate a career change. I was talking about more long term furloughs when things are really bad (example including 9/11). Or if you lose a medical permanently.

"This backup degree is nonsense" spoken like a true, ignorant "aviation degree" pilot. Having a *good* backup degree (engineering field, accounting/math type, technical/science type, or even language) can give you that something for down the road when you do hit an obstacle. Suppose you are 45 and have permanently lost your medical. What are you going to do? You'd have to go back to school and specialize in something that you hadn't done before. A guy with a good back up degree only has to brush up, and reach out for contacts he knows (network) into an entry-level job. If not, then specialize in certification that allows a job within that field. Either way, you are going to cut down on time by already having a good back up degree.

The same is true with some engineering programs also. It's a "use it or lose it" type deal or the profession has evolved so much to where you don't know it any more. My wife's a former engineer who bailed on it over 10 years ago to become a teacher.
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Not necessarily. It all depends. I left my engineering job in '07 and I still have enough knowledge (and books/notes left on a dusty shelf) that I could use to bring myself up to par for at least an entry-level engineering job. I still have contacts as well from my job when I was in that field.
 
KLB said:
Well when I was working on my instrument rating back in the day, you had to actually fly NDB approaches using an ADF. We didn't have that fancy GPS overlay. :)
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Many of the punk kids these days consider a classic NDB approach to be an emergency situation of some sort. No GPS is a no-go, for some that I've come across.

And pilotage? DR? You'd have to be crazy and out of your damn mind to undertake something as dangerous as that, to them.
 
MikeD said:
Many of the punk kids these days consider a classic NDB approach to be an emergency situation of some sort. No GPS is a no-go, for some that I've come across.

And pilotage? DR? You'd have to be crazy and out of your damn mind to undertake something as dangerous as that, to them.
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That's some sad stuff. I used to buy dinner for my students who could fly ndb approaches, same applied for getting a perfect flag swap on VOR approaches.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
It isn't. If it was up to me, I'd pass a law that forced colleges to disclose the top 10 degrees in terms of most number of jobs landed and what they paid. Truth is engineering would be near the top. Colleges don't disclose any of this information even though they collect it! Remember, the #1 degree major for a typical 18 yr old is "undeclared." Colleges need to ensure they get people spread out and do everything the college offers. In a perfect world, people would see that aviation degrees, French history, basket weaving, are just a waste of time and money with no real payoff. Imagine if a list was published that showed the most successful college degrees in terms of job placement and salaries. If students then entered only those fields, colleges would lose all the other departments and furlough professors/lecturers/staffers/etc.

About your furlough situation, I would say "it depends." Right after 9/11 type furlough, you knew you'd be out way long-term. However, if you work for someone like Vision Airlines and they close shop, chances are pretty good you are going to get picked up fast at another LCC/Major. This kind of furlough doesn't necessitate a career change. I was talking about more long term furloughs when things are really bad (example including 9/11). Or if you lose a medical permanently.

"This backup degree is nonsense" spoken like a true, ignorant "aviation degree" pilot. Having a *good* backup degree (engineering field, accounting/math type, technical/science type, or even language) can give you that something for down the road when you do hit an obstacle. Suppose you are 45 and have permanently lost your medical. What are you going to do? You'd have to go back to school and specialize in something that you hadn't done before. A guy with a good back up degree only has to brush up, and reach out for contacts he knows (network) into an entry-level job. If not, then specialize in certification that allows a job within that field. Either way, you are going to cut down on time by already having a good back up degree.


Not necessarily. It all depends. I left my engineering job in '07 and I still have enough knowledge (and books/notes left on a dusty shelf) that I could use to bring myself up to par for at least an entry-level engineering job. I still have contacts as well from my job when I was in that field.
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Your situation is quite a bit different, since you actually worked as an engineer. I am referring to a kid going to Purdue, getting an engineering degree and his ratings, and going right to work in the aviation field. There are plenty of "entry level" aviation jobs that don't involve flying.
 
mojo6911 said:
Your situation is quite a bit different, since you actually worked as an engineer. I am referring to a kid going to Purdue, getting an engineering degree and his ratings, and going right to work in the aviation field. There are plenty of "entry level" aviation jobs that don't involve flying.
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I'd still say that Purdue engineering guy is still much better in terms of backup and more options.
 
Derg said:
Hell, most state colleges are a rip off these days, but a necessary evil.

I paid 1200/semester at Riddle, which was expensive, but today in 2014, ASU in-state is almost 14,000/year.

ZOOOOOOMG but look at our footbawl teem!
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Heck I just paid more than that for just two classes!
 
Derg said:
Hell, most state colleges are a rip off these days, but a necessary evil.

I paid 1200/semester at Riddle, which was expensive, but today in 2014, ASU in-state is almost 14,000/year.

ZOOOOOOMG but look at our footbawl teem!
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Ughhhh... I'm starting to see the light of graduation from the Junior college system in front view. I have no idea, zero, zilch idea about how I'm going to be able afford any of the University options. Post graduation from the Maricopa colleges.
 
amorris311 said:
That's some sad stuff. I used to buy dinner for my students who could fly ndb approaches, same applied for getting a perfect flag swap on VOR approaches.
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Geez, what kind of CFI job did you have where you could buy yourself dinner, not to mention your student?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
In a perfect world, people would see that aviation degrees, French history, basket weaving, are just a waste of time and money with no real payoff.
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Not this line of BS again.

If you work hard, network, and make yourself marketable, you can get a job with any degree you want. It's about the individual, not the program of study.
 
zmiller4 said:
Not this line of BS again.

If you work hard, network, and make yourself marketable, you can get a job with any degree you want. It's about the individual, not the program of study.
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My older brother has a medical degree (MD). He did a bachelors then went to med school. You can work hard, network, and make yourself marketable all you want, you cannot get a doctor job without what my brother did.

I have an engineering degree. You can work hard, network, and make yourself marketable all you want, but you cannot land a job that specifically requires an engineering degree.

Another hot field is language, especially Middle Eastern specialties. There's a shortage of applicants who can speak/read/write Arabic at the FBI, CIA, NSA. Translators, for example. You can work hard, network, and make yourself marketable all you want, but you cannot land this job unless you know Middle Eastern languages well (like Arabic).

What you are saying only works for the most generic of jobs, not specialized ones.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Good advice. I'd recommend the same. The pilots I knew at Great Lakes, Silver, GoJets, and Mesa have all upgraded and are interviewing with majors whereas those regional pilots that went to "quality" regionals like American Eagle, ExpressJet, Mesaba, SkyWest, are 5-7+ year FOs. Having no turbine PIC shuts many doors including SWA and FDX. Also, not having that time makes it that much harder to get hired at a legacy.

My advice to anyone going for a regional would be to pick the one that is considered the crappier one, get in, learn, upgrade, get your time, and get out. Regionals are not meant to be a career stop. You won't gain anything for your career going to a "quality" regional.
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Anecdotal but ok.

Now of all the pilots that went to "not so quality regionals", what percentage never upgraded, got furloughed, sidestepped to a quality regional, and got hired at a major?


If you show me numbers that back up your allegations, I'd be inclined to believe. In the meantime, I see too many regional pilots going to other regionals and not the majors.


It'd be nice if we could compile a list of major new hires and where they came from.

Bottom line, you never know how 'upgrade times' will change so I'd personally rather buckle up and pick somewhere that I could see myself in 5-10 years.

Regionals are just a stepping stone but sometimes events outside your control may have you at a regional for well over 5 years. Be it new congressional rule (age 65), major catastrophe (9/11), your regional closed up shop so you end up at another (comair), regional lost some flying so now upgrade times have tripled, etc

Point is, no one plans to stay there forever, sometimes you get stuck.

With that said, I've seen many people hired with 0tpic. I'm not chasing the left seat dragon to end up stuck somewhere I don't wanna be in the future.

Not in any way defending regionals that are considered quality, just expressing my views.


All that said, I'm merely a 91 guy trying to go 121, so bash away if you must. Im Always open to new viewpoints and to learning new things
 
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