"...plenty of pilots willing to fly—if the pay’s right."

Where's @TheFlyingTurkey when you need him? He's our local HVAC expert who has schooled some people in the past on his profession and alternatives to the college degree route. I believe he's said before that he makes more money than most RJ captains and gets plenty of time off. Maybe he'll stop by and give us the straight scoop again.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
For virtually all of regional airline history, having at least 1,500 hours was the minimum to get hired. It was a small sliver of time that allowed you to get hired right after getting your ratings. And since getting to the majors requires a college degree, everyone starts out getting that, too, which eats up four years and tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of dollars.
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Maybe. But from at least the mid 2000's to the early 2010's, plenty were getting hired with low time and no degree. Prior to that, the monetary investment of flight training was drastically lower (my flight training from 2002-2005 cost me half what it would now).

Apparently I'm "doing it wrong."
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If you don't think you get more enjoyment or satisfaction out of flying than a desk job, I certainly can see where your outlook comes from. I don't believe it's very widely held (or it could be a "grass is greener" situation).

It wasn't. Until recently, my career was golden. I had no complaints (or at least very few). But we're talking about people getting into it now, not about how my career was. In my estimation, anyone who is going to benefit from the coming hiring wave is already hired at a regional and just waiting on their slot. Everyone who hasn't started yet will be coming in at the trailing end of the hiring wave, and will be stuck at the regionals for a long time. And then they'll be stuck on the bottom of the seniority list as furlough fodder for many years when they finally do get to a major. And for that "privilege," they need to pay six figures to get started and live on poverty wages. I don't believe it makes sense anymore. Sorry.
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I don't disagree that getting in now--with a now astronomical training cost and several years of experience *required*--before there's been any structural changes in pay at the regionals is not ideal, and I wouldn't recommend it.
 
zmiller4 said:
Maybe. But from at least the mid 2000's to the early 2010's, plenty were getting hired with low time and no degree. Prior to that, the monetary investment of flight training was drastically lower (my flight training from 2002-2005 cost me half what it would now).
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I wouldn't say "plenty." It didn't really become common until the 2007 timeframe. I got hired with lower time at Pinnacle in 2002, but it was because of their deal with GIA. Almost everyone that wasn't GIA in my newhire class had at least 1,500 hours. That was common for most regionals.

If you don't think you get more enjoyment or satisfaction out of flying than a desk job, I certainly can see where your outlook comes from. I don't believe it's very widely held (or it could be a "grass is greener" situation).
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I get much more job satisfaction at my desk. But to each his own. And of course, I own my own business. That certainly makes the rewards far greater and the work more interesting than working for someone else.
 
zmiller4 said:
Maybe. But from at least the mid 2000's to the early 2010's, plenty were getting hired with low time and no degree. Prior to that, the monetary investment of flight training was drastically lower (my flight training from 2002-2005 cost me half what it would now).



If you don't think you get more enjoyment or satisfaction out of flying than a desk job, I certainly can see where your outlook comes from. I don't believe it's very widely held (or it could be a "grass is greener" situation).



I don't disagree that getting in now--with a now astronomical training cost and several years of experience *required*--before there's been any structural changes in pay at the regionals is not ideal, and I wouldn't recommend it.
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Quite disheartening. But I got in this game to fly. I do intend on doing that regardless of obstacles. Conquer and prevail.

@ATN_Pilot I am not familiar with your story regarding your airline career but would love to know.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You mean there are actually people here who don't know my background? I doubt it. I'm an open book about it.
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Lets see if I get close.......

did some flight training
went to gulfstream
went to peaknuckle
went to airtran
got bought by swa
went hiking at red-rocks in jeans :-)
with a bunch of ALPA work in between

people may not agree, one way or the other with what he has done, but he surely has been honest about it.....
 
JEP said:
Lets see if I get close.......

did some flight training
went to gulfstream
went to peaknuckle
went to airtran
got bought by swa
went hiking at red-rocks in jeans :)
with a bunch of ALPA work in between

people may not agree, one way or the other with what he has done, but he surely has been honest about it.....
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With the exception of that hike at Red Rock that almost killed me being before SWA, pretty accurate. :)
 
bc2209 said:
@ATN_Pilot I am not familiar with your story regarding your airline career but would love to know.
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Ok, I'll give you the full rundown. I started flying when I was 12 years old. Got my private as soon as I turned 16, and my commercial as soon as I turned 18. I was obsessed with being an airline pilot (had been since I was 4 years old), so I wanted to get there as soon as possible. I saw advertisements in Flying Magazine for years for Gulfstream International Airlines and their Gulfstream Academy. It was essentially a "pay for training" operation, which meant that you paid for your newhire training yourself (I believe it cost me about $14k), and they gave you a job flying their BE-1900s. It was a Continental Connection operator flying mostly inside Florida and out to the islands. I didn't realize at the time that this "PFT" thing was pretty frowned upon in the industry, and I was solely focused on getting to the airlines as quickly as possible, so it sounded like a great idea to me.

Then 9/11 hit less than a year into my time at Gulfstream, and I was back into the school house to get my CFI. Spent some time doing some instruction for the Gulfstream Academy side of the company, and then got hired at Pinnacle thanks to a preferential hiring thing they had worked out. Upgraded to captain at 23, and hired at AirTran shortly before my 25th birthday. That was about 7 years ago.

As JEP points out, lots of union work mixed in, beginning during my probationary year at Pinnacle. I realized around that time that the PFT thing was bad for the profession, and I regretted it, but what can you do? So now I get crap for the rest of my days from some of the people around here for it. Such is life.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Ok, I'll give you the full rundown. I started flying when I was 12 years old. Got my private as soon as I turned 16, and my commercial as soon as I turned 18. I was obsessed with being an airline pilot (had been since I was 4 years old), so I wanted to get there as soon as possible. I saw advertisements in Flying Magazine for years for Gulfstream International Airlines and their Gulfstream Academy. It was essentially a "pay for training" operation, which meant that you paid for your newhire training yourself (I believe it cost me about $14k), and they gave you a job flying their BE-1900s. It was a Continental Connection operator flying mostly inside Florida and out to the islands. I didn't realize at the time that this "PFT" thing was pretty frowned upon in the industry, and I was solely focused on getting to the airlines as quickly as possible, so it sounded like a great idea to me.

Then 9/11 hit less than a year into my time at Gulfstream, and I was back into the school house to get my CFI. Spent some time doing some instruction for the Gulfstream Academy side of the company, and then got hired at Pinnacle thanks to a preferential hiring thing they had worked out. Upgraded to captain at 23, and hired at AirTran shortly before my 25th birthday. That was about 7 years ago.

As JEP points out, lots of union work mixed in, beginning during my probationary year at Pinnacle. I realized around that time that the PFT thing was bad for the profession, and I regretted it, but what can you do? So now I get crap for the rest of my days from some of the people around here for it. Such is life.
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Gotcha. Still flying?

Also, recently I've been very interested in the political/big picture aspect of airlines, industry, better the world of a professional pilot in general. How can I put myself in a good position to do this? Where to even begin? I'm very new but with the help from this website I've gained a wealth of information and would like to become some sort of an advocate for our profession.

I've started to realize that, although I love and am very intrigued with the flying aspect, I am even more so with how the industry works and was amazed at the politics involved.
 
bc2209 said:
Gotcha. Still flying?
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Barely. :) I still have my seniority number, but I bid reserve and "call last," so I only go flying when the you-know-what has hit the fan. I think I've flown about 80 hours in the past year. I'll be resigning when the schedules get bad as the AirTran fleet is drawn down, but I've got a little time left. I plan to buy a small GA airplane to keep in the air once I'm done with the airlines.

Also, recently I've been very interested in the political/big picture aspect of airlines, industry, better the world of a professional pilot in general. How can I put myself in a good position to do this? Where to even begin? I'm very new but with the help from this website I've gained a wealth of information and would like to become some sort of an advocate for our profession.

I've started to realize that, although I love and am very intrigued with the flying aspect, I am even more so with how the industry works and was amazed at the politics involved.
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After you get off of probation at your first airline, you should volunteer to do some union work. If the political aspects and lobbying appeal to you, you should volunteer for the Legislative Affairs Committee. ALPA has lots of pilots go to Capitol Hill to lobby for various things that benefit the profession. After you do a little union work, you'll get a feel for what other areas may interest you.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I think you missed my point: I'm not a fan of marriage. Not married, never have been married, never plan to be married.
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Tell me again what your response is to airline pilots that slam unions without actually having any experience in one, haven't volunteered to work in one, have no desire to help in one, and haven't a clue what is required to make it work as well as it does, all while failing to understand how much their life is improved because of the union in spite of the amount of very hard work and pain that is required to keep it going in the right direction?
 
SteveC said:
Tell me again what your response is to airline pilots that slam unions without actually having any experience in one, haven't volunteered to work in one, have no desire to help in one, and haven't a clue what is required to make it work as well as it does, all while failing to understand how much their life is improved because of the union in spite of the amount of very hard work and pain that is required to keep it going in the right direction?
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Seeing as how the repercussions from a failed marriage are severe and irreversible, I'm not really interested in trying it out. Especially when 50% turn out poorly. I don't like those odds. But good for you if you're the exception.
 
Todd you're still missing the point. Steve is showing you a good point and it's still going right over your head.
 
fly22 said:
Todd you're still missing the point. Steve is showing you a good point and it's still going right over your head.
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I know what point he's trying to make. My answer is that the statistics clearly show that it's a fantasy. But hey, I'm sure my buddy who just lost 7 figures in a divorce trial should be thankful for his marriage, right?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I think you missed my point: I'm not a fan of marriage. Not married, never have been married, never plan to be married.
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Then don't tell us married guys how to have a healthy marriage.

In order to not wind up in the 50% of marriages that get divorced, keeping the wife happy is a better financial decision than chasing career progression.
 
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