Latest Eagle AIP rejected

Before everyone's jimmies get rustled...

I'm confused, I think SkyWest just took over some of Lakes old routes and no one cared.

What am I missing? And I know I'm probably missing something, but I thought someone might as well do the flying if no one else is.
SKW taking over Lakes flying is a win, no matter your opinion of SkyWest. It puts Lakes one step closer to extinction, and gives the pilots operating those routes a raise (and gives the community much more reliable service on a much better airplane - or perhaps the same airplane).

Let's keep in mind what the bottom line for a SKW EM2 pilot in either seat is vs. a Great Mistakes (any equipment) pilot is.
 
Serious or joke post?
Seriously. I know that most senior Eagle pilots are pretty jaded by flow through and "shiny jet syndrome", but, like it or not, it would have had a strong pull on new hires. As it stands (even before the AIP was rejected) Eagle looks like a dying, stagnant airline with obsolete, inefficient equipment. The AIP would have remedied both those problems, at least in the eyes of potential new hires.
 
Seriously. I know that most senior Eagle pilots are pretty jaded by flow through and "shiny jet syndrome", but, like it or not, it would have had a strong pull on new hires. As it stands (even before the AIP was rejected) Eagle looks like a dying, stagnant airline with obsolete, inefficient equipment. The AIP would have remedied both those problems, at least in the eyes of potential new hires.

The flow is a big joke. Guys like @Firebird2XC have a better chance up moving to mainline on their own, rather than waiting for flow to suck them up. Republic has the new e-jets and they are having trouble recruiting pilots. Eagle is expensive because they have too many senior guys who don't want to move on. I don't think taking concessions would have solved this problem, but I admit, I have no clue.
 
Seriously. I know that most senior Eagle pilots are pretty jaded by flow through and "shiny jet syndrome", but, like it or not, it would have had a strong pull on new hires. As it stands (even before the AIP was rejected) Eagle looks like a dying, stagnant airline with obsolete, inefficient equipment. The AIP would have remedied both those problems, at least in the eyes of potential new hires.

Doubtful.

Cash and prizes.

If the AIP was successful at cutting hourly rates and gutted the work rules, all the shiny jets on earth wouldn't improve medium to long term staffing problems.

People would "Great Lakes" Eagle in a heartbeat. Go there, get some experience and lateral over to a better paying regional.

Like the pilots in love with Virgin America. If Delta called for an interview and subsequently hired them, they'd be getting their widget tattoo on the small of their back 20 seconds after the cellphone went back into their pocket.

If having engines under the wings is that much of a draw to an airline, we are certainly screwed as a profession.

#MMMTO
 
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Before everyone's jimmies get rustled...


SKW taking over Lakes flying is a win, no matter your opinion of SkyWest. It puts Lakes one step closer to extinction, and gives the pilots operating those routes a raise (and gives the community much more reliable service on a much better airplane - or perhaps the same airplane).

Let's keep in mind what the bottom line for a SKW EM2 pilot in either seat is vs. a Great Mistakes (any equipment) pilot is.

Thats exactly right. Lakes pilots will all get hired at Skywest and make more as first officers than they would as captains all while working in a non hostile enviroment. Communities get better service. And the industry gets rid of one more bottom feeder. Win win win.
 
The flow is a big joke. Guys like @Firebird2XC have a better chance up moving to mainline on their own, rather than waiting for flow to suck them up. Republic has the new e-jets and they are having trouble recruiting pilots. Eagle is expensive because they have too many senior guys who don't want to move on. I don't think taking concessions would have solved this problem, but I admit, I have no clue.

This is accurate. I've been encouraged by acquiring flowthrough rights of my own in the past ('Protected Pilot' arbitration settlement, July 2011) but the reality is they don't mean much except for a vague promise in the future. Plus, if you really take the time to study the history of the original Flowback/Flowthrough agreement, 'Letter 3', you realize that the company can reneg on that promise and force you to drag them to court. They've done exactly that- a few times. We've won some things, and even got some payouts to make affected pilots whole, but it's a process that took years. Pilots that were promised they'd be at American in 5 years back in the late 90's are just now seeing flow in the last few years. That's a lot more than 5 years.

Wanna see how the flowthrough looks for a new hire? My seniority number is mid 1700's. If you allot for 300 pilots to stick it out at Eagle that are senior, that leaves, say, 1450 pilots senior to me. If Eagle's really going the way of the dodo, then they'd be mad not to take flow. Assume, then, there are some close to retirement, or don't care, or whatever. Lop off another 200. That's 1150.

If 1150 pilots before me had to flow, and you took the most optimistic attrition rate of about 80 a month (50 flowing, 30 leaving for elsewhere), that's about 14 months until I see flow. That's ONLY if everybody goes, and hiring and attrition continues at exactly that rate. Let's say people stop leaving quite so quick, so a more realistic 15 per month bail out, and 30 per month get to flow. At 45 per month, that's 25 months.

Sounds good, right? Wrong. I'VE ALREADY BEEN HERE OVER SIX YEARS. For a newhire, that's an ADDITIONAL 1300 pilots between them and flow- and the more junior you get, the less likely it'll be that they're leaving for Virgin Galactic. So that's only 30 per month, more or less. That's an *additional* 43 months. IN OTHER WORDS... THE most optimistic plan I can concoct based on current trends and realistic numbers is 5.6 YEARS until you flow to AA. And that's IF... IF AA doesn't meter the flow to keep Eagle running in the interim, while the rest of the regional industry is choking and cavitating on the shortage of new hire pilots.

So let's add another year or two, just to be fair. Now you're coming up on seven years or so.

Sounds peachy, right? But you're missing something else. At 1500 hours, you can apply directly to places like Delta and United. So not every class at Eagle will fill. Eagle will lose pilots faster than they could ever hope to replace us because people are holding out for airline jobs with actual decent paychecks. So things will vaporlock at Eagle.

Eagle will shrink, but it won't be because we angered the airline overlords because we dared to think we were worth what they already promised us. It'll be because the regional market won't be sustainable unless they make some serious changes to the way they treat employees.
 
Ooh, one memory from the "Bankruptapalooza Days" at Southernjets.

One of you guys on the forum, no not in the thread I don't think, was dating a SouthernJets flight attendant who was afraid that if we voted down concessions, the company would fold and she would lose her job. "Unfair" I think was one of the words used in the missive.

So this person took the time to write me a scathing private message about how his girlfriend was scared, upset and angry and how dare I speak about not "doing what was right" and voting in concessions to save the company. I "could give more" and she would keep her job.

Eagle guys, be ready for that kid of idiocy.

Engines under the wings and mammals who wear panties drive some pilots to act like absolute clowns.

True story bro.

I'm going to have to dig that up if it's still around.
 
Eagle will lose pilots faster than they could ever hope to replace us because people are holding out for airline jobs with actual decent paychecks. So things will vaporlock at Eagle.

Eagle will shrink, but it won't be because we angered the airline overlords because we dared to think we were worth what they already promised us. It'll be because the regional market won't be sustainable unless they make some serious changes to the way they treat employees.

+1

That's my view. Also, I think people are forgetting and take for granted ALPA's vast international network.

P.s. Good luck to those SJS dreamers looking for the FAA to reduce the 1500/hr rule, it's all a pipe dream IMHO. World wide demand for pilot means THERE IS A PLACE TO GO FOR INCREASED BENEFITS AND PAY. More benefits than what U.S regionals are willing to offer currently. Yes PIC opportunities, and faster equipment upgrade exist out there. It's not DOOM and GLOOM because Eagle MEC rejected the offer, with equal amount of balls (snow balls that is).
 
Ooh, one memory from the "Bankruptapalooza Days" at Southernjets.

One of you guys on the forum, no not in the thread I don't think, was dating a SouthernJets flight attendant who was afraid that if we voted down concessions, the company would fold and she would lose her job. "Unfair" I think was one of the words used in the missive.

So this person took the time to write me a scathing private message about how his girlfriend was scared, upset and angry and how dare I speak about not "doing what was right" and voting in concessions to save the company. I "could give more" and she would keep her job.

Eagle guys, be ready for that kid of idiocy.

Engines under the wings and mammals who wear panties drive some pilots to act like absolute clowns.

True story bro.

I'm going to have to dig that up if it's still around.

Solid info. And we have had a little of that already. But it's comforting to note that members of other labor groups are better informed than we'd thought. We're getting a lot of vocal support from our FAs and some of the other labor groups too. I think they know once they've gotten something from the pilots, they're next. So we've got that going for us.
 
If 1150 pilots before me had to flow, and you took the most optimistic attrition rate of about 80 a month (50 flowing, 30 leaving for elsewhere), that's about 14 months until I see flow. That's ONLY if everybody goes, and hiring and attrition continues at exactly that rate. Let's say people stop leaving quite so quick, so a more realistic 15 per month bail out, and 30 per month get to flow. At 45 per month, that's 25 months.
I was asked about the flow agreement at an event held by my flight school.

"Well, son, on the best day of the year, I was #3099. That meant that there were 3,098 pilots ahead of me. (etc.)"

Seniority is the right way to do a lot of things; it's the WRONG way to assign seats in new hire classes at different airlines.
 
Ooh, one memory from the "Bankruptapalooza Days" at Southernjets.

One of you guys on the forum, no not in the thread I don't think, was dating a SouthernJets flight attendant who was afraid that if we voted down concessions, the company would fold and she would lose her job. "Unfair" I think was one of the words used in the missive.

So this person took the time to write me a scathing private message about how his girlfriend was scared, upset and angry and how dare I speak about not "doing what was right" and voting in concessions to save the company. I "could give more" and she would keep her job.

Back when PSA voted down 900 rates the first time (or maybe it was the second time... can't remember) in 2008 or so, the company was really quick to put out a memo stating that because the pilots had killed the deal there would be no growth and potential shrinking in the near future. Cabin/Cockpit relations got mighty frosty in a hurry and even some rampers (back then PSA ran the ramp at about 8 stations) started to get kind of grumpy with us.

Of course the place never shrunk, although it didn't grow either until now. The ramp operation ended up getting pushed over to PDT and all those rampers either lost their jobs or had to start over on year one ramp pay though.
 
Doubtful.

Cash and prizes.

If the AIP was successful at cutting hourly rates and gutted the work rules, all the shiny jets on earth wouldn't improve medium to long term staffing problems.

People would "Great Lakes" Eagle in a heartbeat. Go there, get some experience and lateral over to a better paying regional.

Like the pilots in love with Virgin America. If Delta called for an interview and subsequently hired them, they'd be getting their widget tattoo on the small of their back 20 seconds after the cellphone went back into their pocket.

If having engines under the wings is that much of a draw to an airline, we are certainly screwed as a profession.

#MMMTO
You make some excellent points, though if I might clarify a little. I do not believe the draw to "shiny airplanes" is really that great. What I mean more is that new 70+ seat airplanes in an industry where 50 seat airplanes are increasingly undesirable points to an airline with greater growth potential (i.e. one that will last until the new hire in question is able to move on to a major).

I do not deny that the AIP pay cuts were substantial, especially if you wished to stay at eagle for a career. However, remember that a pilot looking for a job is likely considering the total compensation they would receive and if the AIP caused upgrades and flows to move faster (which I believe it would have), then new hires would stand to make substantially more money at eagle than if the AIP had not passed (or at an airline that is more stagnant than Eagle). In fact, the company even made an "AIP projection tool" that showed when you would upgrade and flow based on whether the AIP passed or not.

I suppose some would term this "chasing upgrades" and "shiny airplanes!", but, right or wrong, I think these factors are real when considering where the new hires will go.
 
You make some excellent points, though if I might clarify a little. I do not believe the draw to "shiny airplanes" is really that great. What I mean more is that new 70+ seat airplanes in an industry where 50 seat airplanes are increasingly undesirable points to an airline with greater growth potential (i.e. one that will last until the new hire in question is able to move on to a major).

I do not deny that the AIP pay cuts were substantial, especially if you wished to stay at eagle for a career. However, remember that a pilot looking for a job is likely considering the total compensation they would receive and if the AIP caused upgrades and flows to move faster (which I believe it would have), then new hires would stand to make substantially more money at eagle than if the AIP had not passed (or at an airline that is more stagnant than Eagle). In fact, the company even made an "AIP projection tool" that showed when you would upgrade and flow based on whether the AIP passed or not.

I suppose some would term this "chasing upgrades" and "shiny airplanes!", but, right or wrong, I think these factors are real when considering where the new hires will go.

Did you even read what I wrote about the flowthrough above? The ONLY thing that will attract new hires in a market like this is pay rates.

Anybody who takes a job based on what they're told during the interview hasn't done the homework. I'd hesitate to get in a jet with someone who doesn't think about where the airplane is going before they take it there. I'm even more hesitant to consider working for a place that hires people who give that little thought about where their career is going to go.
 
You're being unrealistic. That said,I suspect you'll see an announcement today.it's always bad news on Friday afternoons. Psa to get 20 planes,pdt to get 20, sky west get 20 is my guess but it's just a guess.

And those 60 planes are going to require 900 qualified pilots to fly them. Where exactly are those 900 qualified pilots going to come from?

Joe
 
Did you even read what I wrote about the flowthrough above? The ONLY thing that will attract new hires in a market like this is pay rates.

Anybody who takes a job based on what they're told during the interview hasn't done the homework. I'd hesitate to get in a jet with someone who doesn't think about where the airplane is going before they take it there. I'm even more hesitant to consider working for a place that hires people who give that little thought about where their career is going to go.
I did. However, I respectfully disagree with your conclusions.

I think the most optimistic flow through numbers are closer to 3 years for a new hire. 2700 pilots on the seniority list - 400 pilots who won't flow or will retire = 2300 pilots. Attrition to other airlines and flowthrough at 60/month = 3 years 2 months. If no pilots leave to other airlines and the flow is minimal (30/month), then you're looking at around 7 years - but I'm not sure this is realistic given the shear number of pilots that will be hired in the next 10 years.

I think that a new hire would jump at the chance to be able to flow in 3-7 years because it provides some extra security. You would know that if your applications at Delta, American, United, FedEx, UPS, Southwest, etc. didn't pan out, you would still be able to get to AA without an interview.

It's also true that you can apply to all the majors with 1,500 hours, but you still need 1,000 turbine with that and I don't believe the majors are looking at people with flight time that low just yet.

Finally, I agree that pay rates are decisive in attracting pilots, but pilots are savvy enough to realize that they will make more money if they can upgrade faster. The added attrition at eagle from increased flowthrough would potentially allow new hires to do just that.

In any case, we are both looking at the same evidence, but we see very different conclusions. I suspect that we differ on more fundamental principles about the world in general.
 
And those 60 planes are going to require 900 qualified pilots to fly them. Where exactly are those 900 qualified pilots going to come from?

Joe

My statement was in response to your post "it's 2 days later-they haven't shut us down." You can't have actually expected them to close us down yesterday. If you did you clearly don't get it.​
 
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