pete2800
'Member?
Planes don't have to be falling out of the sky. People just need to be scared that they might fall out of the sky.
Business Week: Yes, There’s a Pilot Shortage: Salaries Start at $21,000
- Thread starter CoffeeIcePapers
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Planes don't have to be falling out of the sky. People just need to be scared that they might fall out of the sky.
And how is that exactly going to make wages better? We live in a price driven society/economy. It's called greed. These articles have been circulated for decades. People have always known that regional pilots (commuter pilots of decades past) make peanuts. And you know what they did back then. They flew on "little airplanes" and "puddle jumpers" still. This isn't the first time the media has exposed this, and it isn't going to be the last. If guys are looking for more money from a regional carrier, the media isn't the way to do it. It's wasted time and energy.
ChasenSFO
hen teaser
Those "little planes" and "puddle jumpers" weren't flying people 2/3 across the country in jets in previous decades like they do now. I'd be curious to see how many domestic flights a day on United are flown by mainline instead of a regional. People tend to care when they feel involved. You drop headlines like "More than X% of Y airlines flown by pilots likely on little sleep for peanut wages" makes people go "OMG I fly on Y airlines!", then they click. Just have to scare people, and the media is good at that.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Personally I 100% blame the 'union' for making pay as deplorable as it is now. The commuters were never meant to be a career but the senior pilots who couldn't leave were greedy and robbed Peter (the FO's) to pay Paul (them).
As a RJ CA with 5 years at the company I made $100k yet a new FO made maybe $25k? OK great for me but completely unfair (especially if you were my FO, you WORKED for your $$
). CA pay should be around $75k and FO pay around $50k and the total cost is still the same yet the wealth is spread. So much for brotherhood. Airline pilot "unions" are all about ME ME ME. Look at UPS for the way it should be done - same pay across the board, and those guys took a pay cut to keep guys on property. When it came time for a new contract the CA's gave the FO's the lions share of the pay increase because they realized they would be FO's for quite a while and not upgrade like they did. THAT is the idea behind a union. Somehow we've lost touch with our blue collar roots.
As a RJ CA with 5 years at the company I made $100k yet a new FO made maybe $25k? OK great for me but completely unfair (especially if you were my FO, you WORKED for your $$
). CA pay should be around $75k and FO pay around $50k and the total cost is still the same yet the wealth is spread. So much for brotherhood. Airline pilot "unions" are all about ME ME ME. Look at UPS for the way it should be done - same pay across the board, and those guys took a pay cut to keep guys on property. When it came time for a new contract the CA's gave the FO's the lions share of the pay increase because they realized they would be FO's for quite a while and not upgrade like they did. THAT is the idea behind a union. Somehow we've lost touch with our blue collar roots.And that's as far as it will go.
Let me ask you this. How exactly do you think the media "exposing how much regional pilots earn" is going to help? What will the public do when they find out?
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ChasenSFO
hen teaser
What did the public do when they thought people with less than 1500 hours were what caused a Q400 to level a house in BUF? They made noise and something happened.
block30
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but parents sending little Johnny to Uber Expensive Flight U do care. Maybe even little Johnny will care, too. I did a few middle and high school career day visits and the kids definitely ask about pay, and have a general idea of what is good or bad.
Not everyone cares, but this message is definitely getting out....a helluva lot more than when I was in middle and high school researching this job with a few books* from the library and the Bureau of Labor Statistics publication that all pretty much glossed over the low pay and the commuters, and instead focused on major airline pay scales.
*I imagine some of you are wondering, "What the heck is this research with books stuff?? Couldn't you just google airline pilot like a normal person????"
z987k
Well-Known Member
Actually safety has gone up with the "bigger" airplanes, that are largely out of the weather entirely, instead of in it for 75% of the flight.
ChasenSFO
hen teaser
Shhh, don't tell them that.
Skåning
Well-Known Member
Where were you? I dont know of any 5 year captains, let alone any that make $100 an hour.Personally I 100% blame the 'union' for making pay as deplorable as it is now. The commuters were never meant to be a career but the senior pilots who couldn't leave were greedy and robbed Peter (the FO's) to pay Paul (them).
As a RJ CA with 5 years at the company I made $100k yet a new FO made maybe $25k? OK great for me but completely unfair (especially if you were my FO, you WORKED for your $$
genot
Well-Known Member
This, this, 1,000 times this.
It isn't even greed really all the time. It can be simply necessary convenience. My parents live in the CHA area and need to get to Ireland. I and they have made that hop more than a dozen times. They can drive 15 minutes and park free at CHA or deal with ATL and a two and a half hour drive. In the past ATL was cheaper, but direct on Southern Jets. Now? Now its is the 2nd domestic connection city on US Air too much for my 76 year old dad, or is a second stop over in AMS going to work out after the contracted Aer Lingus flight lands? Perish the thought but the best option out of ATL right now is COA feeding ACA out of YYZ via EWR. I grew up with L-1011's feeding ATL-SNN come to the terminal for tea, now SNN-DUB. It just isn't the same.
Because of safety, not because of pay. Heck, it was all over the news that Rebecca was having to do a transcon commute, AND work a coffee shop job because she made so little money, remember? The were talking about it back then. Just like they are now. Believe me, I wish and hope you were right, but society has shown it doesn't work that way in the past.
Krieger
Well-Known Member
Personally I 100% blame the 'union' for making pay as deplorable as it is now. The commuters were never meant to be a career but the senior pilots who couldn't leave were greedy and robbed Peter (the FO's) to pay Paul (them).
As a RJ CA with 5 years at the company I made $100k yet a new FO made maybe $25k? OK great for me but completely unfair (especially if you were my FO, you WORKED for your $$
Can the unions spread the wealth around if the pilot group wants it? It would help attract new hires, plus all the senior guys should be leaving to the majors soon. Win Win?
Mark815
Well-Known Member
I agree 100% with you that the public isn't going to give a crap about what pilots make, but that's exactly why I said in another thread that the pilots MUST make this about safety, because in the end it's not even a spin, it's the truth.While the public won't care about the pay, they absolutely will care when they find out that there's no actual shortage of pilots, just a shortage of pilots willing to work for less, and that the airlines would rather cut safety and put inexperienced pilots at the controls while lining their pockets with the public's cash, instead of paying a properly qualified pilot a liveable wage. Whoever has the better lobbyists will win, so lets hope the pilots can make a big enough push.
FloridaLarry
Well-Known Member
Mark815 said (in part):
Let's also recognize that all pilots don't speak with the same voice. The needs of a 55 year old mainline captain, whose pool-cleaner makes more than a starting regional FO, are most emphatically not the same as a starting 1,500 hour right-seater with a huge training loan.
Yet, some people expect that CA to take one for the good of the profession. Not many will - they want someone else to clean their pool. They believe they've paid their dues, and they have. They're worried about bankruptcy, pension default, failing a medical, and their seats (#s & $) shrinking.
We also expect a union to speak with a single voice for the profession. How can a single union advocate for these incompatible goals?
Yes, starting salaries must go up, but it won't be at the expense of gray-haired mainline CAs.
Let's also recognize that all pilots don't speak with the same voice. The needs of a 55 year old mainline captain, whose pool-cleaner makes more than a starting regional FO, are most emphatically not the same as a starting 1,500 hour right-seater with a huge training loan.
Yet, some people expect that CA to take one for the good of the profession. Not many will - they want someone else to clean their pool. They believe they've paid their dues, and they have. They're worried about bankruptcy, pension default, failing a medical, and their seats (#s & $) shrinking.
We also expect a union to speak with a single voice for the profession. How can a single union advocate for these incompatible goals?
Yes, starting salaries must go up, but it won't be at the expense of gray-haired mainline CAs.
And it shouldn't be at the expense of the captains who have 25+ years in the business. There are ways to make the industry better without slashing pay of senior captains. We could start with the elimination of "golden parachutes" and huge exucitive bonuses. When they give management 2-3 million dollar bonuses, then ask for 1-2 million dollars in concessions.....
Krieger
Well-Known Member
Without the attractive big pay you won't get the best CEOs....
How will they fill their CEO classes?
Ha! Seems like they hire CEO's that honestly do exactly what they want, even at the cost of the company/bankruptcy.
pete2800
'Member?
jgheggie
Well-Known Member
Not Mr. Gerard Arpey
American Airlines CEO
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/01/o...rlines-a-departing-ceos-moral-stand.html?_r=0