Republic Airways presents: Schedule your own interview!

[ppragman]

The entitlement attitude of some of the children getting into this industry sickens me! I wish I could say it's going to get better but I doubt it.

On board with everything you've said until the bolded. People who don't give notice (under most circumstances) are dicks. That said, this "the kids these days" stuff seems to be a common thought process that a lot of people these days have - especially when targeting Millenials for scorn. Wanting more than $25,000 / year out of a job is not "entitlement." Wanting a job where you have a schedule is not entitlement. Wanting a job where you can "support a family" is not entitlement. Suggesting that a generation of kids should be chastised for acting too entitled when they aren't afforded the same opportunities their parents were is crazy. Wages haven't kept up with inflation in how long?

You're a PenAir guy from what I recall, I'd love to go over and fly for you guys, but you guys don't pay enough for the first SEVERAL years for me to be able to make the jump - that's not "entitlement" that's simply the economic calculus I have to do to figure out whether or not I can go to a place. I'm not "too good" for a Saab, rather, it's financially impossible for me to fly one under the currently available compensation packages. I had the opportunity several years ago to go to PenAir and regret not going - but I wanted a different adventure at the time and was young and dumb. That said, as an "adult now" with all the responsibilities that entails, it sucks that I can't even look at an "airline" job as a 5000hr plus pilot because it would take me a crazy long time to recoup my losses. It sucks that if I want to progress in my career I have to subject my family to a lower quality of life in the hopes that the gamble will pay off. That's not common in many other industries, and it's not right.

For anyone over the age of 30, or anyone with a family, it's clear that the starting wages in the industry at the "sub-major" level are by and large ridiculous. The wages and compensation package simply don't match the level of responsibility and level of dedication it takes to get ahead. There's no shortage of guys beating down the doors of the majors looking for work - why is Republic having a hard time? Because they don't pay. Pure and simple.

 

[ajdwings]

On board with everything you've said until the bolded. People who don't give notice (under most circumstances) are dicks. That said, this "the kids these days" stuff seems to be a common thought process that a lot of people these days have - especially when targeting Millenials for scorn. Wanting more than $25,000 / year out of a job is not "entitlement." Wanting a job where you have a schedule is not entitlement. Wanting a job where you can "support a family" is not entitlement. Suggesting that a generation of kids should be chastised for acting too entitled when they aren't afforded the same opportunities their parents were is crazy. Wages haven't kept up with inflation in how long?
.

I know it's wrong to categorize all "the kids" into one group but I'm just going by the statistical sample at my airline. When we started we hired all low time FOs <1000hr. Some waaay under 1000hrs. Probably about 15 guys. Just about every single one of them have left for Republic. Most of them were hired with strong internal recs from guys that went to bat in a big way to hire them with low hours and really low quality flight time. A few were even hired post 1500hr regulation knowing they would not have the time to get their ATP. These "low timers" were allowed to fly when they should have been on reserve. Many times at the expense of their co workers. The company let them fly in AK on the 135 freighter over the 100 hr mark. Making pretty good money and taking hours away from other guys. Both the company and the employees recognized the need for these guys to get the time necessary to get their ATP and everyone "played ball" to help them out. No one wanted to see them get furloughed. The company even offers to pay for them to go get their ATP if they agree to stick around for a year or 2.

So how did they re-pay the company and the pilots that sacrificed for them you ask? Two by quitting the day they got 1500hrs and taking a class at Republic. Zero days notice and the other by quitting a few months later. They all sited not that they saw no future at our airline and that no upgrade in sight. They also said that they needed jet time and glass time to get hired at jetBlue and Saab time was not good on a resume. The third guy basically becomes the worst FO in company history. Ask any pilot here to describe him and the answer is cocky and entitled. He quit after working on the line for 8 months because he thought he was getting complacent and not furthering his career. AFTER 8 months of flying the Saab. He was flight instructing with 600hrs less than a year ago and now he's complacent in the right seat of an airliner that he can't fly worth a %&$#.

Did you do the walk around? Oh did you want me to?
Texting while reading a checklist!!
Sleeping in the gate area in uniform
Thinking you're qualified to work at a major after 8 months and a wet ATP.
Thinking you're not learning anything by flying a turboprop in some of the worst weather and busiest airspace.
The list can go on forever….

This is what I mean by ENTITLEMENT !!

 

[ajdwings]

…and furthermore the reason the regionals pay crappy and are crappy places to work is because people will always have the need to work there.

Why should these airlines continue to pay large training costs for guys that have plans of staying there. Since the beginning of the time in this industry regionals have always been a "friends with benefits" situation. Both airlines and pilots screwing each other for mutual gain.

Everyone needs to wake up and realize this. No one will ever "plan" on retiring at a place like Republic even if they paid more. Let's face it they start paying higher wages then there is no benefit for the larger airline that actually OWNS the airplanes to have them operated by these dirtbag regionals. Hmmmmmm see where this is going? They should be mainline aircraft to begin with!!

Also no one is going to fly an RJ til they retire if they can help it. SJS is very quickly replaced by SWBS (shiny wide body syndrome). For this reason regional airlines will always be a stepping stone and will NEVER pay more. And you should never plan on supporting a family on regional airline pay. It's a quick recipe for divorce. I speak from experience. Consider it part of your training. Be humble, don't get violated, don't bust any check rides, learn from the Captains you fly with, try to get by on your foodstamp wages, hopefully upgrade and then move on to a major. But do it LIKE A MAN! Lot's of guys before you have followed this formula and are VERY happy now.

 

[eightballfreight]

I'm not defending the people (kids) you hired, but objectively this is a two way street.
Who in the free market did you attract? What can you offer? One guy is a turd, a pack of turds is a trend.
Not to mention a two year contract is a red flag.

 

[ajdwings]

I'm not defending the people (kids) you hired, but objectively this is a two way street.
Who in the free market did you attract? What can you offer? One guy is a turd, a pack of turds is a trend.
Not to mention a two year contract is a red flag.

You missed my point. All these guys were referred by guys that work here. They all knew someone here that went to bat to get them hired.

I'll put the QOL, pay and most of all scheduling process at Penair in BOS against ANY regional out there right now. The only thing we cannot help is SJS.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

On board with everything you've said until the bolded. People who don't give notice (under most circumstances) are dicks. That said, this "the kids these days" stuff seems to be a common thought process that a lot of people these days have - especially when targeting Millenials for scorn. Wanting more than $25,000 / year out of a job is not "entitlement." Wanting a job where you have a schedule is not entitlement. Wanting a job where you can "support a family" is not entitlement. Suggesting that a generation of kids should be chastised for acting too entitled when they aren't afforded the same opportunities their parents were is crazy. Wages haven't kept up with inflation in how long?

Well...my dad's first-year paychecks looked remarkably similar to mine. In 1978.

Hmm.

You're a PenAir guy from what I recall, I'd love to go over and fly for you guys, but you guys don't pay enough for the first SEVERAL years for me to be able to make the jump - that's not "entitlement" that's simply the economic calculus I have to do to figure out whether or not I can go to a place. I'm not "too good" for a Saab, rather, it's financially impossible for me to fly one under the currently available compensation packages. I had the opportunity several years ago to go to PenAir and regret not going - but I wanted a different adventure at the time and was young and dumb. That said, as an "adult now" with all the responsibilities that entails, it sucks that I can't even look at an "airline" job as a 5000hr plus pilot because it would take me a crazy long time to recoup my losses. It sucks that if I want to progress in my career I have to subject my family to a lower quality of life in the hopes that the gamble will pay off. That's not common in many other industries, and it's not right.

For anyone over the age of 30, or anyone with a family, it's clear that the starting wages in the industry at the "sub-major" level are by and large ridiculous. The wages and compensation package simply don't match the level of responsibility and level of dedication it takes to get ahead. There's no shortage of guys beating down the doors of the majors looking for work - why is Republic having a hard time? Because they don't pay. Pure and simple.

tl;dr: economics is a two-way street.

 

[HVYMETALDRVR]

FYI, it looks like our total fleet will have about 20 less aircraft this time next year. I get these numbers from the estimated 45 E-145s were parking, 20 or so E-175s were adding for AAL and I think 3 or 4 Q400s were adding in Q2 this year. I'm not sure if the charter aircraft are a part of 45 145's we're parking.

This will help our staffing issues a lot.

 

[eightballfreight]

You missed my point. All these guys were referred by guys that work here. They all knew someone here that went to bat to get them hired.

I'll put the QOL, pay and most of all scheduling process at Penair in BOS against ANY regional out there right now. The only thing we cannot help is SJS.

No I get your point, I have no dog in the fight so I'll be blunt.
The fact that these guys had internal recs highlights the point that you are not competitive in your market place. I'm not attacking you or your ops personally.
The total compensation package, benefits and perks you offer change from person to person.
One guy leaving like that is a turd, when every body leaves you need to get introspective because objectively you are not competitive in your market place albeit face value compensation is equal, the package you offer is not. SJS is stupid, but it is a market force you must account for.

 

[ajdwings]

No I get your point, I have no dog in the fight so I'll be blunt.
The fact that these guys had internal recs highlights the point that you are not competitive in your market place. I'm not attacking you or your ops personally.
The total compensation package, benefits and perks you offer change from person to person.
One guy leaving like that is a turd, when every body leaves you need to get introspective because objectively you are not competitive in your market place albeit face value compensation is equal, the package you offer is not. SJS is stupid, but it is a market force you must account for.

Once again my original point is that these turds (new word which I like thank you, perfect description) were hired with very low time at the request of existing employees. Most because no one else would hire them without ATP mins. They were treated very fairly, paid competitively, and would still be employed. I think the company is realistic in the sense that they know they can't compete with SJS and that they would loose people.

Can you honestly say they don't deserve 2 weeks notice? I personally handle all the scheduling for this very small airline. It's extremely disruptive when some turd quits with zero notice..

I know I sound like a company guy, maybe I am. But Penair has done nothing but greatly help these guys get their career going in the right direction. Neither they not the guys that recommended these turds deserved to be screwed by these entitled punk ass little boys. Turds !!

Grow the %#@$ up !! Start acting like a man and maybe you'll be treated like one!

 

[Firebird2XC]

Once again my original point is that these turds (new word which I like thank you, perfect description) were hired with very low time at the request of existing employees. Most because no one else would hire them without ATP mins. They were treated very fairly, paid competitively, and would still be employed. I think the company is realistic in the sense that they know they can't compete with SJS and that they would loose people.

Can you honestly say they don't deserve 2 weeks notice? I personally handle all the scheduling for this very small airline. It's extremely disruptive when some turd quits with zero notice..

I know I sound like a company guy, maybe I am. But Penair has done nothing but greatly help these guys get their career going in the right direction. Neither they not the guys that recommended these turds deserved to be screwed by these entitled punk ass little boys. Turds !!

Grow the %#@$ up !! Start acting like a man and maybe you'll be treated like one!

Aaaaand there we have it, kids. A CREW SCHEDULER calling pilots 'turds' and then lamenting when they aren't courteous enough to give a full two weeks notice. He calls them turds then talks about hiring pilots with such limited experience that nobody else would hire them. Just because their buddy referred them? Why not pay a little more and hire someone who's more experienced? More polished? But clearly the company is running a soup kitchen for inexperienced pilots, but damn those ungrateful turds!

Gee...

I worked for an employer who frequently dropped the ball and left pilots to pick up the slack, then worked us to the bone. No less than the company president stood there telling us that pilots were flying the planes into stations away from crews then walking away and not coming back. He thought it was a failing of the pilots, somehow, and never cleaned his own house.

One wonders what one has to do to inspire such little loyalty.

 

[amorris311]

@Firebird2XC please understand that @ajdwings is a pilot. He is not a crew scheduler, but merely a pilot who builds the schedules for the small pilot group. You and I both have those at our companies. I see his frustration and know several pilots that work over at his outfit. I think you do to considering your background.

 

[ppragman]

I'd just like to say you'd probably have better luck if you hired experienced professional pilots and paid the price for experience rather than low time guys who are hour and jet hungry.

 

[ajdwings]

I'd just like to say you'd probably have better luck if you hired experienced professional pilots and paid the price for experience rather than low time guys who are hour and jet hungry.


Nevermind guys. If you can't figure out what I'm saying you never will. I'm done.

As for the guy that thinks I'm a crew scheduler, all ill say is you wish I was a scheduler at your airline! I started the schefule process each month with an email that said " ok guys tell me which days you want to work next month. EVERYONE got a 100% commutable schedule and as much time off as they wanted. For the two years I did the schedule no one needed a crash pad and Boston and not one single person had to pay for a hotel. QOL was better than FedEx. But as all us pilots are cry babies they just started bitching about the next thing like pay or upgrade time.

Biggest bunch of whiney bitches I've ever seen.

I'm out! Good luck!

 

[Firebird2XC]

@Firebird2XC please understand that @ajdwings is a pilot. He is not a crew scheduler, but merely a pilot who builds the schedules for the small pilot group. You and I both have those at our companies. I see his frustration and know several pilots that work over at his outfit. I think you do to considering your background.

So he's a *management pilot* that does crew scheduling? I don't see much difference.

 

[HVYMETALDRVR]

Two basic rules I've learned:

1. Supply v. Demand

2. You get what you pay for, pilots are no exception...

 

[surreal1221]

TL;DR

Compete or lose.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Once again my original point is that these turds (new word which I like thank you, perfect description) were hired with very low time at the request of existing employees. Most because no one else would hire them without ATP mins. They were treated very fairly, paid competitively, and would still be employed. I think the company is realistic in the sense that they know they can't compete with SJS and that they would loose people.

Can you honestly say they don't deserve 2 weeks notice? I personally handle all the scheduling for this very small airline. It's extremely disruptive when some turd quits with zero notice..

I know I sound like a company guy, maybe I am. But Penair has done nothing but greatly help these guys get their career going in the right direction. Neither they not the guys that recommended these turds deserved to be screwed by these entitled punk ass little boys. Turds !!

Grow the %#@$ up !! Start acting like a man and maybe you'll be treated like one!

@ajdwings : so is the company going to "grow the %#@$ up !!" And always give two weeks notice?

 

[Rodger Wilco]

THe shortage will all be solved when we got to age 70-or die in your seat, in a couple of years.

Pilot shortage solved due to new legislation that actually allows dead pilots to fly right seat!
Thats right pilots, no need to worry about retirement, because there will be none.
No need to worry about QOL, there will be none
There will be a little hearse (painted in your airlines livery) that scoots around the ramp

 

[ppragman]

Man, I don't think you're getting what I'm saying - PenAir and to a much greater extent other operators set themselves up for this sort of thing with the low pay. Loyalty can be bought, and if the only people you can attract to work there are the ones willing to work for so little, you can't really expect them to balk at something that could provide them something better later. I would love to work at PenAir if I could make $50,000 out of the gate and top out in the mid-hundreds over the course of my career, but I can't. If that were the case, I'd be down at your guys' hangar every day trying to rub elbows, I'd be calling friends who work/worked there looking for a reference, and chatting up the flight crews when I hear them in McGrath. But since that is not the case, the only people PenAir can really attract are people who are in a position where $11 and $1100 is a viable situation. These people don't probably don't have families for the most part, and are typically younger. Since the pay isn't sustainable initially for guys to raise a family on it, you should almost expect them to transition through the system, get their time and move on. It sucks, but thats the way it is.

Is it crappy that these guys bailed without notice? You damn right it is; it's also unprofessional, but at the same time, did PenAir give the 135 guys in AKN notice before they closed down operations? I honestly don't know, but I suspect not. I know the writing was "on the wall" out there for awhile, and those guys should have had a backup plan regardless, but still. I know that the Mechanics Helpers all got laid off over at PenAir recently, did those guys get 2-weeks notice? I don't know - I'm not employed by PenAir, but I doubt it.

The truth is, PenAir misses out on reliable, loyal, and experienced pilots because they do not compete economically. When a guy looks at his career while he's making sub $30k a year in a Saab, then looks at a similar wage to fly a jet (arguably a "better" career move if your long term goal is to fly buildings) with a shorter upgrade time the decision is clear - bail on PenAir, go fly a jet for the same money in a cheaper part of the world to live in. If PenAir was smart, they would raise their hiring minimums, hire experienced local pilots with ties in the region, and pay them a livable wage from the start. The line to get onboard would be long, the pilots would stick around for a long time, and the costs associated with training would plummet. You cannot expect loyalty when you're paying the bare minimum. If paying a reasonable wage is economically impossible - then perhaps the market needs to correct the price of the ticket. You guys effectively have a monopoly on flights down to the Peninsula, you can essentially do whatever you want.

 

[Roger Roger]

Man, I don't think you're getting what I'm saying - PenAir and to a much greater extent other operators set themselves up for this sort of thing with the low pay. Loyalty can be bought, and if the only people you can attract to work there are the ones willing to work for so little, you can't really expect them to balk at something that could provide them something better later. I would love to work at PenAir if I could make $50,000 out of the gate and top out in the mid-hundreds over the course of my career, but I can't. If that were the case, I'd be down at your guys' hangar every day trying to rub elbows, I'd be calling friends who work/worked there looking for a reference, and chatting up the flight crews when I hear them in McGrath. But since that is not the case, the only people PenAir can really attract are people who are in a position where $11 and $1100 is a viable situation. These people don't probably don't have families for the most part, and are typically younger. Since the pay isn't sustainable initially for guys to raise a family on it, you should almost expect them to transition through the system, get their time and move on. It sucks, but thats the way it is.

Is it crappy that these guys bailed without notice? You damn right it is; it's also unprofessional, but at the same time, did PenAir give the 135 guys in AKN notice before they closed down operations? I honestly don't know, but I suspect not. I know the writing was "on the wall" out there for awhile, and those guys should have had a backup plan regardless, but still. I know that the Mechanics Helpers all got laid off over at PenAir recently, did those guys get 2-weeks notice? I don't know - I'm not employed by PenAir, but I doubt it.

The truth is, PenAir misses out on reliable, loyal, and experienced pilots because they do not compete economically. When a guy looks at his career while he's making sub $30k a year in a Saab, then looks at a similar wage to fly a jet (arguably a "better" career move if your long term goal is to fly buildings) with a shorter upgrade time the decision is clear - bail on PenAir, go fly a jet for the same money in a cheaper part of the world to live in. If PenAir was smart, they would raise their hiring minimums, hire experienced local pilots with ties in the region, and pay them a livable wage from the start. The line to get onboard would be long, the pilots would stick around for a long time, and the costs associated with training would plummet. You cannot expect loyalty when you're paying the bare minimum. If paying a reasonable wage is economically impossible - then perhaps the market needs to correct the price of the ticket. You guys effectively have a monopoly on flights down to the Peninsula, you can essentially do whatever you want.

I think Alaska aviation is going to go through a huuuge crisis here as old guys that run places fail to adapt to changes in the aviation job market. Namely, they all think that the same numbers that were good pay when they started 20-30 years ago will still attract competent, experienced pilots.