Trouble teaching Power On Stalls

tmccaghren17

tmccaghren17

CFI/CFII
So I been teaching my student all the required maneuvers so far. One of his hardest ones is the power on stall (his power off are good), its always fine up to the buffet which has been taking forever to reach lately. After that while we keep the nose high attitude to achieve the full stall, the right wing tends to always drop on him (if anything I would expect the left one one to). Then I try to show him and the same thing happens when I try it ( yes I am coordinated by the way). For some reason I cannot get it to have a clean break on the stall. Any tips or advice I can give him to help, Im going to keep working just want some ideas for it. I may just be I haven't flown this type of airplane in a while.
thanks guys
 
1. Most likely he is apprehensive of doing power-on stalls since this ilk of stall has a higher than normal pitch-attitude than that encountered during most normal phases of flight, and even that of power-off stalls. The airplane's pitch-attitude is higher and in addition to that the engine is more often than not set to a full power or thereabout for this kind of stall. Your student may have a fear of doing them because of these factors, and that could lead to hesitant behavior. I tell my students to pitch up about one-degree per second while they pull back on the yoke smoothly and continuously. It may serve him well if you sit down and explain to him that it is humanly normal to be apprehensive about stalls, but they are safe to practice without fear of losing control of the aircraft or stalling.

2. It is possible that your student is applying too much right-rudder pressure before, during and after the stall unfolds. Watch the inclinometer and feel any pressure on your body the next time that you two practice stalls. Look outside to make sure that the airplane is not changing heading. I used to make this mistake as a student all the time....
 
Are you always flying with him in the same airplane? The right wing drop could be a result of rudder rigging issues. A 150 Aerobat I teach in from time to time has a similar issue, so in order to break straight ahead from a power on stall, a little bit of left rudder is actually needed to keep it straight. Also, consider covering up the turn coordinator and have the student focus his attention out the window at the nose. At the first sign of a yaw in one direction or another, have him correct for it with opposite rudder. Do that a few times and he shouldbe doing perfect power on stalls in no time.
 
The right wing dropping isn't a rigging issue. Its a rudder issue they have to much rudder in. This tells me that they dont really know how the rudder is working/ are not looking outside to see if the aircraft is coordinated.
 
For the rudder issue, have him point the airplane at a cloud, then use the rudder to keep the cloud in the same spot. For the apprehensiveness, break it down for him. Have him do a power-off stall where you control everything except the rudder, and the student controls only the rudder and is tasked with preventing a wing drop while you perform a falling-leaf maneuver. Once he can do this, do the same thing except in a power-on stall. Once he is good at that, have him do a power on stall where he does aileron/elevator and power, and you control rudder. Then put it all together.

When the student gets comfortable-and most importantly make sure you feel comfortable doing this- if you're in something docile like a cherokee or 172, maybe have him induce and then recover from wing drops. Obviously its on you to prevent a full on spin entry if your airplane isn't certified, so only do it if you're good and comfortable doing it.
 
I don't quite understand the problem here. The wing can drop in a power on stall with you doing everything right. The goal of a power-on stall is not, as I see it, to not let the wing drop, but to demonstrate the recognition and recovery from a power-on stall.

What stops the wing from dropping, 100% of the time, and fixes all the rest of your ills?

Pitch. :p Why teach them to 'pick up' the wing, outside of training maneuvers to demonstrate a continuous power-on stall*? By the time the wing is dropping, it's definitely stalled. What are you waiting for? Recover by breaking the stall... the airplane will be an airplane, and if that ever happens at 300' AGL, you won't have a student more concerned with "picking up" a wing than fixing the problem. Drop the nose, break the stall, fly it out.

My opinion.

-Fox
* - Fun, but can be a wild ride even if done well. I like teaching it though, though I prefer partial power.
 
Der_Meister said:
The right wing dropping isn't a rigging issue. Its a rudder issue they have to much rudder in. This tells me that they dont really know how the rudder is working/ are not looking outside to see if the aircraft is coordinated.
Click to expand...

Look at the original post. He says it also happens when he is demonstrating. So either tmccaghren17 doesn't "really know how the rudder is working" or it's some kind of rigging issue. The former is not impossible; a lot of pilots, CFIs included, tend to focus on the ball rather than outside for their coordination.

As you suggest, this practice maneuver is more about feet and eyes outside than anything else.
 
Is it a sky hawk? What engine?
I had the same issue
I have been giving some instruction lately in one that you cannot use full power on, you'll go almost vertical,
And when it stalls you start a tail slide...which is why your wing is dropping even when you're coordinated (at full power all that airflow on the right rudder your using to counter the left turning is like a hammerhead performed without enough airspeed at the top)

Remember the PTS says you only need 65% power

In this particular plane I have them slow until the horn or bottom of green arc then set power to just inside the green (tach) and pitch up for the stall.......

The first couple time I flew it I ended up looping it trying to get the stall.
 
DBrown said:
Is it a sky hawk? What engine?
I had the same issue
I have been giving some instruction lately in one that you cannot use full power on, you'll go almost vertical,
And when it stalls you start a tail slide...which is why your wing is dropping even when you're coordinated (at full power all that airflow on the right rudder your using to counter the left turning is like a hammerhead performed without enough airspeed at the top)

In this particular plane I have them slow until the horn or bottom of green arc then set power to just inside the green (tach) and pitch up for the stall.......

The first couple time I flew it I ended up looping it trying to get the stall.
Click to expand...

...???

Sorry, but that sounds ridiculous. Get the airplane slow, near stall, then add full power. You can't get vertical, tailslide, or "loop" from that in any airplane I've ever flown except possibly for the S2B.

I'm not trying to be negative, but are you trying to do power-on stalls from cruise speed or something..??

~Fox
 
If my instructor accidentally looped the airplane trying to demonstrate a power on stall, I would find a new instructor.

There is no reason you guys should be getting dramatically high pitch attitudes with this maneuver if you start it in level flight at minimum controllable airspeed like @Acrofox said.

I honestly hope somebody is trolling or kidding around... :aghast:
 
Slow to VX or VY while maintaining altitude, add full power and pitch up. You don't need a lot of pitch, it will stall. (C-172s and similar)

Ignore the inclinometer, keep the nose from yawing.
 
Last edited:
Acrofox said:
...???

Sorry, but that sounds ridiculous. Get the airplane slow, near stall, then add full power. You can't get vertical, tailslide, or "loop" from that in any airplane I've ever flown except possibly for the S2B.

I'm not trying to be negative, but are you trying to do power-on stalls from cruise speed or something..??

~Fox
Click to expand...

You must not have much time in many airplanes
That's why I asked what airplane and engine, because there are a lot of planes that can get nearly vertical by adding full power from the bottom of the green arc
Even a sky hawk,

Big difference between a tired old 145hp 172 and a freshly overhauled XP with 210hp,

There is a reason the PTS only requires you to use 65% power for power on stalls.
There are plenty of planes that either won't stall, or will pitch up so much before the stall you would need a parachute to be legal.
 
DBrown said:
You must not have much time in many airplanes
That's why I asked what airplane and engine, because there are a lot of planes that can get nearly vertical by adding full power from the bottom of the green arc
Even a sky hawk,

Big difference between a tired old 145hp 172 and a freshly overhauled XP with 210hp,

There is a reason the PTS only requires you to use 65% power for power on stalls.
There are plenty of planes that either won't stall, or will pitch up so much before the stall you would need a parachute to be legal.
Click to expand...

I figured if it was a Hawk XP (which I have some time in) that you would have mentioned that. As far as your allegation that I don't have much time in many airplanes, your terms are generic enough that I can't contest it. I'm not holding myself out as a model of experience by any stretch of the imagination, but I have done power-on stalls in every airplane I've ever flown, including some decently-powered airframes.

"need[ing] a parachute to be legal." at 30.1° is vastly different from looping or tail-sliding an airplane out of a properly-executed power-on stall, and I just can't imagine getting a trainer remotely near the vertical by decelerating to minimum controllable airspeed and adding full power.

Maybe if I had a degree...

-Fox
 
I wasn't meaning to be condescending, so I apologize, but I have flown more than a dozen airplanes that you can go full power from the bottom of the green arc and get nearly vertical.

Not everyone trains in trainers, I have a student that owns a P Ponk 182, and there is zero chance of doing a power on with full power. Another student owns a turbo Toga, same thing it's not going to happen.

Like I said 2 times prior there is a reason the PTS only requires 65% power

That's why I asked what he was flying, he never said.
 
Well it's good to know that if I'm ever flying a 265hp 182 or a saratoga I can climb at 70º nose up with full power like an F16 and never stall!
 
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