Question For Pilots

R

RobertB

Well-Known Member
I'm curious how different of an experience is it flying into major airports from one another? (For example, do you get more delays and vectors at say LAX than IAD?) From the controller side, we see a big difference in how airlines fly compared to one another, but we are at the same facility every day where you guys go to multiple places.
 
Very different. I'd guess that the expectations at certain tracons/towers are very different and as such the controllers act very differently. A DCA tower controller take great pride in pumping one extra plane out between arrivals (only place where I've heard "spool them up... get ready... almost... and... cleared for immediate takeoff runway 19." Maybe LGA might do something similar, but you'd never hear that at Denver or Atlanta. Same thing with vectors. It seems like places like New York and Atlanta are able to give you one big turn and be done with it where as Charlotte and Philly will give you four of five (or ten) turns and multiple speed changes to get the in trail just right.

And then of course you have HCF who just vector you straight into the terrain and other airplanes or just forget all about you.
 
Although my experience is in GA isn't flying into major airports, rather flying near them, I've noticed that flying either near or below the DFW Class B without talking to anyone isn't that common, and in fact tower controllers seemed surprised or confused that I asked for taxi without asking for flight following. Whereas in Chicago, where I received my private pilots license it's extremely common, if not in the majority, to fly below the Class B without talking to anyone
 
BobDDuck said:
Very different. I'd guess that the expectations at certain tracons/towers are very different and as such the controllers act very differently. A DCA tower controller take great pride in pumping one extra plane out between arrivals (only place where I've heard "spool them up... get ready... almost... and... cleared for immediate takeoff runway 19." Maybe LGA might do something similar, but you'd never hear that at Denver or Atlanta. Same thing with vectors. It seems like places like New York and Atlanta are able to give you one big turn and be done with it where as Charlotte and Philly will give you four of five (or ten) turns and multiple speed changes to get the in trail just right.

And then of course you have HCF who just vector you straight into the terrain and other airplanes or just forget all about you.
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We all get trained differently but I was trained and fully agree with giving a turn that you know is going to work the first time rather than keep tweaking it. Now, if there really are enough where you do need an exact mileage and no more than that is different but whatever is easiest is what I'm generally going to do...especially if it is for separation. If I think I need 10, I'll go ahead and just give you 15 if not 20. If there are only two of you on the scope then that is one thing but I don't want to sit there and have to watch you make sure that the vector is going to work. It's just asking for trouble and another 2 miles isn't really penalizing you. If I vectored you too much then I can always turn you back early. My trainer always told me, "Give a turn that you know will 100% work where you could turn your back to the scope and know that they will be just fine."
 
I concur with it being different. Flying in IAH and the controllers were a little less micro-managing compared to LAX. We'd be on downwind and cleared for the visual in IAH and we wouldn't hear anything from the approach controller until switching to tower. At LAX, however, we're cleared for the visual and then 1 or 2 vectors for the runway. I know they're trying to get the spacing just right, but after going in and out of there so many times I think we're capable enough to provide adequate separation with our preceding aircraft. Unless I'm missing the bigger picture.

Jtsastre
 
BobDDuck said:
Very different. I'd guess that the expectations at certain tracons/towers are very different and as such the controllers act very differently. A DCA tower controller take great pride in pumping one extra plane out between arrivals (only place where I've heard "spool them up... get ready... almost... and... cleared for immediate takeoff runway 19." Maybe LGA might do something similar, but you'd never hear that at Denver or Atlanta. Same thing with vectors. It seems like places like New York and Atlanta are able to give you one big turn and be done with it where as Charlotte and Philly will give you four of five (or ten) turns and multiple speed changes to get the in trail just right.

And then of course you have HCF who just vector you straight into the terrain and other airplanes or just forget all about you.
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Mahalo! :)
 
Quite different. Some places manage your speed to the FAF, some consistently forget to forward you to tower, others give you an RNAV departure but always vector you off of it like clockwork, some dont have radar and could care less what you do (mexico), etc.
 
GA stand point on flying in the west coast. LAX great corridors and so cal does great. PHX they are always willing to help you out. LAS good luck. Seem to hate any kind of VFR operation, even into a satelite airport. They do alot of what troy said. RNAV departure, then take you ff before the first waypoint.
 
and then there's SMF, where you'll watch an aircraft on a 10 mile final…twice. WUT? Oh and don't even get me started on FAT… I think that's where they send the most anti-social…I'd hate to go to their holiday "party".
 
Very different. Flying into ABQ as a medevac during the night, I've had approach clear me to the FBO on their initial call. Flying into PHX, they may have 15 medevacs inbound, and want to know if I'm critical.
 
Max1594 said:
Although my experience is in GA isn't flying into major airports, rather flying near them, I've noticed that flying either near or below the DFW Class B without talking to anyone isn't that common, and in fact tower controllers seemed surprised or confused that I asked for taxi without asking for flight following. Whereas in Chicago, where I received my private pilots license it's extremely common, if not in the majority, to fly below the Class B without talking to anyone
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First off, Chicago hates GA.

Second, Chicago hates GA.

Third, Chicago hates GA.

Getting the idearrr?
 
My biggest Beef is with CLT and the entire CLT airspace. I routinely fly GA into CLT and ATL and the difference is night and day. Arriving and Departing from ATL is a cinch, its easy to predict which runway I will be using and how long it will take me to taxi. Whereas I dread having to deal with CLT, where it is not uncommon to get a taxi clearance from the east ramp to the western most runway, which can take up to 30 minutes not including wait times at the end of the runway in sequence. With hundreds of GA flights into ATL, I have never landed on any runway other than 08L/26R, which is closest to FBO parking. With equal number of GA flights into CLT I have had the full gambit.
 
That's crazy KingAir about CLT! The philosophy here (not CLT) is that we we do everything. We possibly can to give guys the shortest taxi route to parking even if it means flowing numerous aircraft to balance the airport. It's a lot easier having all arrivals taxing in the same general directions versus potentially taxing head on to one another...

BobDDuck, that's good to know. We don't have enough time like CLT or PHL to issue multiple turns. We need it to work in one or maybe two here otherwise you'll go down the crapper quick.
 
KingAir said:
My biggest Beef is with CLT and the entire CLT airspace. I routinely fly GA into CLT and ATL and the difference is night and day. Arriving and Departing from ATL is a cinch, its easy to predict which runway I will be using and how long it will take me to taxi. Whereas I dread having to deal with CLT, where it is not uncommon to get a taxi clearance from the east ramp to the western most runway, which can take up to 30 minutes not including wait times at the end of the runway in sequence. With hundreds of GA flights into ATL, I have never landed on any runway other than 08L/26R, which is closest to FBO parking. With equal number of GA flights into CLT I have had the full gambit.
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did someone say Beef?
 
Quite different.

LAX is stupid-simple as long as it's on west configuration. East flow, and everything (and everyone) slows down, because the airport just doesn't work. 1 hour, 30 minutes block to San Diego? Yup! Also, south ground there is a disaster area and they need to run metering (120.35) more often than they do. The place is laid back as long as everyone's doing what they should be doing. Start to goof it up, and you start seeing what I would call "freeway behavior." Actual quote - "The Delta ramp just pushed that airplane?! Unbelievable!"

San Diego is undermentioned, but sort of amazing. It's probably the busiest single-runway airline airport in the States and they do an excellent job of getting the operations in/out.

SFO/Norcal is similar. They take pride in moving departures in a hurry on the intersecting runways and run a very tight ship. Very fun to fly into and out of as long as the weather's good.

DFW maintains excellent frequency discipline ("Spot 122, turn right, say numbers") and is really quite stupid simple to operate into and out of once you figure out how it works. And work it does.

ORD is carefully orchestrated chaos. Do not stop.

Kennedy is Kennedy. Whatsittooya.

Vegas hates anything that isn't turbofan. Trying to depart Henderson IFR in a 206 was a no-go, and it's still the only place I've been traffic-managed ("TMU says your release time is blank") in a Twin-Bonanza. Jerks. They don't even like the Brasilia much. #proptrashhate

Salt Lake is weird. There, I said it.

Santa Barbara takes delight in issuing spacing instructions and delay vectors/speed adjustments when there are only two airplanes in the whole area on opposite sides of the airport, have each other in sight, and are willing to maintain visual separation.

Fresno and Bakersfield are similar to SBA.

jtsastre said:
I concur with it being different. Flying in IAH and the controllers were a little less micro-managing compared to LAX. We'd be on downwind and cleared for the visual in IAH and we wouldn't hear anything from the approach controller until switching to tower. At LAX, however, we're cleared for the visual and then 1 or 2 vectors for the runway. I know they're trying to get the spacing just right, but after going in and out of there so many times I think we're capable enough to provide adequate separation with our preceding aircraft. Unless I'm missing the bigger picture.

Jtsastre
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Overshooting final is a thing there, so you'll usually get the visual approach clearance followed by another turn.

I really think that the Southern California TRACON does an excellent job at all the airports they serve and are some of the most accommodating (from a GA perspective) controllers on the planet. They WANT you to be in the system and participating, which makes EVERYONE safer.
 
ORD is a PITA. You never know which runway you'll get for arrival or departure. Ground stops if the wx is less than 2000-3. CLT itself isn't too bad, but there are way too many sectors around that airport. Can't go 2 mins without a frequency change.
 
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