Jet Blue blames WX, pilot rest rules for system meltdown

Didn't I see an email indicating that they were headed to a meeting with Airlines of America and the FAA to discuss amendments to FAR 117 to allow greater flexibility during major events such as what happened this week?

(although I'd argue that events such as this week are likely to produce greater fatigue than normal line ops...so if I were the FAA I'd be reticent to offer relief)
 
ZapBrannigan said:
Didn't I see an email indicating that they were headed to a meeting with Airlines of America and the FAA to discuss amendments to FAR 117 to allow greater flexibility during major events such as what happened this week?

(although I'd argue that events such as this week are likely to produce greater fatigue than normal line ops...so if I were the FAA I'd be reticent to offer relief)
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Agreed. Rather than change the rules, they just need to be patient and wait until the airline learns how to deal with IROPs in the new environment.
 
kellwolf said:
Oh, no. There's actually a little truth to the statement. With the new rules, our schedules could handle a 3 or 4 hour delay. 6-8 hour? Not so much. All I had was an MCO-HPN leg with a DH back the next day. They had to change my DH to the later flight, and even then I got home 4 hours late. If I had showed for the original DH (which canceled due to the plane not making it in the night before), I would have been pushing the new duty limits. It's just THAT F'ed up right now.

Keep in mind I was doing ONE leg on ONE FDP. Imagine a guy in that situation flying 3 legs. He'd have been toast.

As for the "years to prepare," it was more like one, and the FAA didn't even start training people on their end until late last year. Then the government shut down. I know the guy in scheduling that's been dealing with this. They were calling the FAA to get clarification on how some stuff was going to work as late as November and still getting "Uh....we don't really know" from the FAA. If the implementation is a cluster, then it's not going to go well on any sides.
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By 'years' I mean they've known it was coming since 2010, right? The exact rules weren't in the hopper that far back, but they had an idea it was coming. How do the people that have plans for plans for plans not have a plan?

I'm sure some of the Legacies- like Doug mentioned, have more restrictive contract rules anyways, but in the LCC world and the Regional sector things are probably seeing a lot of change.

Eagle seems to be coping, but they're working the hell out of the "2 hour extension for unforeseen circumstance" clause. The problem is that the PIC must concur and they're trying to overlook that. Fortunately most Captains seem to be willing to tell them to pound sand when that happens.

Considering how bad my sequence fell apart today due to preventable operational concerns, I'm not really that forgiving in other areas.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
I think it's the rest rules combined with mismanagement. Think about it, if they try to run the IROP like the good ole days, of course the wheels come off. It isn't the same system anymore.
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You can't say that JetBlue hasn't had a history of falling apart during nasty weather though. I understand that most of their flights go through hubs that are particularly prone to bad delays when there are weather issues, but this is hardly the first time that the entire industry has canceled "some" flights and JetBlue had to dump an entire day or two.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
I think it's the rest rules combined with mismanagement. Think about it, if they try to run the IROP like the good ole days, of course the wheels come off. It isn't the same system anymore.
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But in 2007 when there was another meltdown they were under the old rules? Other airlines aren't seeing the issues JetBlue is having due to the new rules they had two years to prepare for. Here is another great article about the problems at JetBlue...

http://business.time.com/2014/01/07/jetblues-got-bigger-problems-than-the-polar-vortex/

In hindsight, do you now see what I was saying about the need to not put policies such as the new 'attendance and reliability policy' in place for to govern the few? Usually makes one miss the big picture like JetBlue has done operationally.
 
Derg said:
I have a deadhead there, I guess I'd better look at leaving in plenty o' time then.
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It's beautiful here today and will get above zero for several hours. The winchill has lessened quite a bit. It will get above freezing the next few days... It'll be shorts weather the next couple of days....
 
Derg said:
Mainline and connection both?

Anyone know anything about Minneapolis?
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Some of the best snow-removal crews in the country....Any cancelations out of here are likely from planes being elsewhere or because ofthe location the departures were headed to.
 
Seggy said:
Here is the former head of the NTSB not buying (like me) JetBlue's 'pilot rest rule' excuse...

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/jetblue-denies-bad-planning-caused-cancelled-flights/
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The problems over the past few days started with the snowstorm closing NY airports (JB's huge hub). As recovery started Sunday morning JFK closes for hours following the Endevour (PNCL) CRJ going off a taxiway. Dozens more aircraft divert, gate return sending the system into the weeds again. The next morning BOS (2nd largest hub) is effectively closed for inbounds due to fog till noon.

NOW....throw in new rest rules and you have quite a situation. There was no clear way to recover in my opinoin....What do you do?
 
Baronman said:
The problems over the past few days started with the snowstorm closing NY airports (JB's huge hub). As recovery started Sunday morning JFK closes for hours following the Endevour (PNCL) CRJ going off a taxiway. Dozens more aircraft divert, gate return sending the system into the weeds again. The next morning BOS (2nd largest hub) is effectively closed for inbounds due to fog till noon.

NOW....throw in new rest rules and you have quite a situation. There was no clear way to recover in my opinoin....What do you do?
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You hire more reserves, if that's what it takes. Maybe tweak sequences/pairings so they're not constantly flirting with max duty times.
 
Baronman said:
The problems over the past few days started with the snowstorm closing NY airports (JB's huge hub). As recovery started Sunday morning JFK closes for hours following the Endevour (PNCL) CRJ going off a taxiway. Dozens more aircraft divert, gate return sending the system into the weeds again. The next morning BOS (2nd largest hub) is effectively closed for inbounds due to fog till noon.

NOW....throw in new rest rules and you have quite a situation. There was no clear way to recover in my opinoin....What do you do?
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Once again, JetBlue had the old rules in 2007 and had issues then.

Furthermore, why did they have to reset the operation for 17 hours when everyone else was trying to get things back on track? JetBlue has canceled 30% more flights than other airlines who operate out of the NYC Area and Chicago. The numbers don't add up in JetBlue's favor.
 
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Seggy said:
Once again, JetBlue had the old rules in 2007 and had issues then.

Furthermore, why did they have to reset the operation for 17 hours when everyone else was trying to get things back on track?
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When 50-60% of the flights touch JFK/BOS, two airports which were on and off shut down over a 4 day period it sends a shock through the system. Not everyone else has such a concentrated presence in those areas. I don't know of another airline which had over half of it's hubs affected over that period, which is why it would take less time to recover.
 
Baronman said:
When 50-60% of the flights touch JFK/BOS, two airports which were on and off shut down over a 4 day period it sends a shock through the system. Not everyone else has such a concentrated presence in those areas. I don't know of another airline which had over half of it's hubs affected over that period, which is why it would take less time to recover.
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So it is the weather then and not the pilot rest rules? Also, I disagree about the concentration. This was a huge storm and hubs from MSP, ORD, DTW, NYC, BOS, PHL, DCA/IAD were affected.
 
jtrain609 said:
Detroit is beautiful, pristine piece of operations nirvana.

Newark is a mess.
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Maybe, but believe it nor, since the new base opened up Dec 1 I haven't even deiced in EWR yet! A key thing is the morning flights are all from redeye inbounds so those airplanes don't have snow/frost from sitting overnight.
 
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