A Real Discussion About the Dreamlifter Accidental Landing

mikecweb said:
I'm confused.
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I'm just saying I would think it should be easy to see a 747 coming towards you while your in the tower. Again, not placing blame on ATC but the tower controllers I know, have in past discussions talked about them having eyes on their landing traffic.
So, when a 747 tells you they are established I would think if the tower controller had looked outside at all, it would have been somewhat obvious they were not approaching that particular runway. Of course all just speculation on my part.
 
FloridaLarry said:
Besides, why do they call it a 'tug' if it usually pushes?
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At most large hub airports with mx programs (SFO, LAX, FRA, LHR, NRT, ect), there's usually at least one plane "under tow" being tugged along somewhere on the field. Sometimes upwards of 10. Its a pretty cool sight when I'm at work in the middle of the night and all of SFO is just a bunch of airliners under tow getting ready for the morning departures.
 
Chief Captain said:
You think the tower always has you in sight when they clear you to land?

The phrase merely means the runway will be available for your use. Using it is at your discretion.
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No, I never assume that they do. However a 747 at night would or should be pretty obvious.
I have several friends who work at the local tracon. We've had numerous discussions about both approach and tower control. I know they always "try" to have eyes (tower controllers) on their traffic.
One discussion we had at a safety meeting was about north flow ops. Which is rare around here. So much so that he stated "landing 12r we can spot a baron ten out, landing 30l we're lucky to pick him up inside the marker".

Like I said I'm not laying blame on ATC just that I would think at some point they would notice a 747 is not landing.
 
mooneyguy said:
Like I said I'm not laying blame on ATC just that I would think at some point they would notice a 747 is not landing.
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Like I was telling Seggy, as well as what queeno and I were referring to, I could see the IAB military controllers getting fried for this. As Ive seen military ATC get fried for a number of things that were aircrew fault.

One thing about Big Blue......a CARDINAL sin is to EVER make Big Blue look bad. The Church of the Air Force does NOT tolerate anyone member making it look bad.
 
Seggy said:
Once again, if they are fired, how does that complete the system? Have you ever heard of a just safety culture?.....
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Of course I've heard of it, just not sure that this situation plugs in as the safety culture as you're trying to make it apply.


Seggy said:
I am sure there are more lessons here than checking two or three times. Landing a 747 at a wrong airport is not a simple mistake. It took a chain of events to lead to this.

Once again, how does firing these pilots lead to an effective tool for learning in the future?
It will make people afraid to make honest mistakes. When they make an honest mistake they won't report their mistake and try to cover it up. Under that type of culture, no one will learn.
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This is exactly my point. This is NOT a situation that another "team of pilots" would (or could for that matter)try to sweep under the rug in order to hide their actions and thereby damaging the future of the safety culture. Nor does it lend itself to preclude others from reporting their mistakes. The safety culture is one that demonstrates it's patience, understanding, and application of corrective actions as well as its' intolerance for blantant mistakes; or the failure to recognize several failed links in the chain [of events]. It could provide a gap seldom closed within the safety culture that demands personal and professional accountability.
 
dustoff17 said:
Of course I've heard of it, just not sure that this situation plugs in as the safety culture as you're trying to make it apply.
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A just safety culture does apply here. At a former airline the crew landed at the wrong airport. The crew was retrained and sent back to the line. Why? At that time we (mostly) had a just safety culture.

Prior to that time we didn't have a just safety culture and we ended up killing 50 people. Have you worked for a company that you felt was unsafe due to their culture? Have you experienced what a punitive safety culture is?


This is exactly my point. This is NOT a situation that another "team of pilots" would (or could for that matter)try to sweep under the rug in order to hide their actions and thereby damaging the future of the safety culture. Nor does it lend itself to preclude others from reporting their mistakes. The safety culture is one that demonstrates it's patience, understanding, and application of corrective actions as well as its' intolerance for blantant mistakes; or the failure to recognize several failed links in the chain [of events]. It could provide a gap seldom closed within the safety culture that demands personal and professional accountability.
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Of course we are accountable.

However, mistakes do happen that have a complex set of circumstances that lead up to that mistake. We learn NOTHING by just firing the crew.
 
Sometimes people are just incompetent or careless enough that firing is justified. No clue if that's the case here, but in my mind there are certainly circumstances that warrant it.

The mistake I see being made in this thread is that people are making a decision for firing, or against firing, before the system has had a chance to work through what actually happened.
 
Seggy said:
A just safety culture does apply here. At a former airline the crew landed at the wrong airport. The crew was retrained and sent back to the line. Why? At that time we (mostly) had a just safety culture.

Prior to that time we didn't have a just safety culture and we ended up killing 50 people. Have you worked for a company that you felt was unsafe due to their culture? Have you experienced what a punitive safety culture is?




Of course we are accountable.

However, mistakes do happen that have a complex set of circumstances that lead up to that mistake. We learn NOTHING by just firing the crew.
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I work at a punitive culture company now. BLOWS! The worst kind too as the pilot group hears NOTHING about mistakes those that get let go, make.

There's three in particular that we know about(tipping a 99 over, taxiing into something, going off pavement in the Metro from a steering failure), but that's about it. REAL safe! :rolleyes:
 
SteveC said:
Sometimes people are just incompetent or careless enough that firing is justified. No clue if that's the case here, but in my mind there are certainly circumstances that warrant it.
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With most airlines there is a period of probation you have under a union contract. Gives all parties plenty of time to evaluate the person and make sure they are competent and a good fit.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Seggy said:
With most airlines there is a period of probation you have under a union contract. Gives all parties plenty of time to evaluate the person and make sure they are competent and a good fit.
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Far be it from me to put words in your mouth so I'll just ask you to expound further on that statement, specifically in regards to the post you quoted.
 
UAL747400 said:
I work at a punitive culture company now. BLOWS! The worst kind too as the pilot group hears NOTHING about mistakes those that get let go, make.

There's three in particular that we know about(tipping a 99 over, taxiing into something, going off pavement in the Metro from a steering failure), but that's about it. REAL safe! :rolleyes:
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Ouch. We've got a management pilot who, as a line pilot, taxiied a plane into another plane and did some pretty serious damage, as well as a few guys who have been Metro'd by the steering. All are still here.
 
SteveC said:
Far be it from me to put words in your mouth so I'll just ask you to expound further on that statement, specifically in regards to the post you quoted.
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If someone has been on property and off probation (which is usually a year in the 121 world), it should be VERY difficult for the company to go after that person. Being incompetent can be easily weeded out in the hiring process and the first year. Most airlines make those take a 'probationary checkride' after nine months. That along with a mentoring program where Captains report back how the new guy is progressing can paint a nice picture about the First Officer. If things aren't working out a meeting can take place and more help given to the new guy. If that STILL doesn't work, well, other options can be discussed including even more training, or a parting of ways.

At Colgan they created a mess for themselves after the 3407 Accident because they didn't have proper processes in place to mentor and develop young pilots. Unfortunately, we had a lot of folks who really shouldn't have been in the cockpit, yet, the company did a horrific job of screening the applicants in the hiring process and training was even more horrific. With our quick upgrade times many of these folks were in the left seat that shouldn't have been. It sucked and was very messy to fix in the culture on property after the accident.
 
UAL747400 said:
At any rate, they're looking at a hefty suspension from the FAA, right? Careless and reckless?
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Not necessarily. I am sure the crews submitted ASAP Reports and as long as they didn't act maliciously, the reports should be accepted and no certificate action taken against the crew.

However, per the FAA, a 709 ride is not considered 'certificate action' (this is bull feces) so they can receive that as it wasn't just a sole source report by the crew. The last aircraft that landed at the wrong airport here in the United States in a 121 Operation (at least we know about) where this occurred, the crew got no actions taken against their certificates. They received retraining per the ASAP ERC recommendation and then a 709 ride (once again, it was let known to the FAA that it is bull feces that a 709 ride is NOT considered 'certificate action' per them).
 
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Aviation International News update today:
Atlas Identifies Causes of 747’s Landing at Wrong Airport
Atlas Air’s internal investigation into how its crew landed a Boeing 747 Dreamlifter at the wrong airport last November has uncovered important factors explaining how the freighter, headed to Wichita’s McConnell Air Force Base, mistakenly landed at the smaller Jabara Airport, nine miles to the northeast of the air base. In a crew-training video obtained by AIN, Atlas Air flight operations vice president Jeff Carlson said that a number of intermittent issues with the first officer’s primary flight display earlier in the night-time flight created some skepticism on the part of the pilots about the reliability of the aircraft’s automation system. Although Wichita’s weather was good, the pilot flying programmed an Rnav/GPS approach to Runway 19L at McConnell that would have placed the aircraft at 3,000 feet over Jabara. According to Carlson, the pilot said previous VFR approaches to McConnell had often put him at a higher altitude than expected and that difficulties in picking out McConnell’s runway prompted him to make an instrument approach. The two pilots did not brief each other about other area airports or the 19L approach lighting system that could have helped them to verify that they were landing at McConnell. Wichita approach controllers cleared the 747 for the instrument procedure 25 miles out and immediately switched the aircraft to the McConnell tower, which cleared the aircraft to land. The 747 remained on autopilot until passing the initial approach fix, at which time the flying pilot saw a brightly lit runway slightly to his left, which seemed to match what he was searching for. Believing the aircraft was too high to land safely, the flying pilot disconnected the autopilot and increased the rate of descent toward what he thought was 19L at McConnell but was in fact Runway 18 at Jabara. The pilot monitoring was uncertain about the runway’s identity, but remained silent. Carlson said the primary reason for the incident was the flying pilot’s late decision to abandon the instrument approach for a visual approach that required him to hand-fly the aircraft, as well as inadequate monitoring by the other pilot. Also mentioned in the video, which Atlas has not released for public viewing, was ATC’s failure to notice the aircraft descending toward the wrong airport. Atlas Air now requires pilots to remain on an instrument approach procedure–even in visual conditions–until passing the final approach fix.
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"Atlas Air now requires pilots to remain on an instrument approach procedure–even in visual conditions–until passing the final approach fix."

If we all start doing that ATC is gonna be ticked.
 
SteveC said:
Aviation International News update today:
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That seems quite plausible. Hopefully those guys got some good retraining and are back online. I'm sure they will never make that mistake again. Maybe the "GIANT" guys can chime in now.
 
DE727UPS said:
"Atlas Air now requires pilots to remain on an instrument approach procedure–even in visual conditions–until passing the final approach fix."

If we all start doing that ATC is gonna be ticked.
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Domestic ATC guys that is. Our friends to the north seem to be cool with instrument approaches no matter what the circumstances.
 
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