Flying into Diego Garcia, cleared to land 200 miles out from FL390.
A Real Discussion About the Dreamlifter Accidental Landing
- Thread starter Mike Wise
- Start date
Flying into Diego Garcia, cleared to land 200 miles out from FL390.
queeno
Ward of the Guberment
see one.... heck I was in the jump seat of a DC-9 back in the day when we did this to get out of the gate in KPHX. it was a Republic DC-9-30, was one of the coolest thing I got to see!!!!
Last edited:
FloridaLarry
Well-Known Member
Mike D replied:
At best, now, it is abnormal practice. Used to be more common at smaller airports without a tug (or enough tugs). Cost of fuel was
m u c h lower. Negatives: increased wear on engines, increased A/C fuel consumption. Tug fuel is cheaper (?), consumption is much lower. Tug time between D checks is astronomically higher. Tug engine rebuilds don't take an A&P.
Besides, why do they call it a 'tug' if it usually pushes?
Once more, the intersection of practicality and the dollar.
At best, now, it is abnormal practice. Used to be more common at smaller airports without a tug (or enough tugs). Cost of fuel was
m u c h lower. Negatives: increased wear on engines, increased A/C fuel consumption. Tug fuel is cheaper (?), consumption is much lower. Tug time between D checks is astronomically higher. Tug engine rebuilds don't take an A&P.
Besides, why do they call it a 'tug' if it usually pushes?
Once more, the intersection of practicality and the dollar.
Yes, I was following that. It's too bad they don't do powerbacks anymore. Looked interesting each time I've seen one.
Thats a fair point regarding tugs.......
Oh yes. They are THAT close, literally; with the main runways parallel. Its nuts.
CaptBill
Well-Known Member
My "I learned from that" story was lining up on Biggs instead of ELP one dark night. I caught it thankfully but It taught me how easy it is to do. I think like most risks in aviation, once you get bit or almost get yourself in trouble over something, you develop additional techniques or habit patterns on that particular issue or procedure to keep it from happening again. It doesn't take much distraction or lack of awareness to really screw something up in this business. I've had my share of oopsies over the years but have managed to develop some self defense cross-checks to save me from myself. Now if I could stop trying to drink coffee in turbulence I would have it made.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
For those who want the crew fired for this incident, what does that accomplish?
A mistake was made by the crew and if you don't allow the complete system to learn from this mistake the mistake is likely to repeat itself. Look at the 'just safety culture' aspect of it. It is also extremely disheartening that the ATC Folks could also be 'fried' over this per military channels. Hopefully cool heads prevail at Atlas and this crew is retrained and the lessons that are learned from this incident permeate throughout the line.
A mistake was made by the crew and if you don't allow the complete system to learn from this mistake the mistake is likely to repeat itself. Look at the 'just safety culture' aspect of it. It is also extremely disheartening that the ATC Folks could also be 'fried' over this per military channels. Hopefully cool heads prevail at Atlas and this crew is retrained and the lessons that are learned from this incident permeate throughout the line.
The military handles stuff alot different. Not always right, just different. Even though ATCs involvement (or lack thereof) would only be a secondary factor, as it's still on the crew to navigate their own aircraft correctly, the USAF could well take punitive action against the IAB tower personnel if they desired. The ICT TRACON folks, not likely to see anything of that nature there, as the FAA understands that while ATC could've potentially helped, as long as the T's were crossed and the I's dotted with the service that was provided, then there's no requirement to go above and beyond that.
dustoff17
Still trying to reach the Top Shelf
I agree that making this the example from which others can learn is one way to handle this.
While I'm not advocating the firing of these pilots, if they were to be fired, there is a lesson to be learned by "the complete system" as well.
The lesson being, check twice and maybe three times as you approach an airport because the last crew "screwed the pooch" and are out looking for employment. I believe either way is acceptable as far as how effective of a learning tool this could become in the future.
Of course everything I state here has my full support AND has been substantiated by my opinion.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Once again, if they are fired, how does that complete the system? Have you ever heard of a just safety culture?
Here is a very brief synopsis of a just safety culture....
http://flightsafety.org/files/just_culture.pdf
http://www.airsafety.aero/safety_development/sms/safety_culture/
http://www.mha-apps.com/media/maps/Creating a just safety culture .pdf
I am sure there are more lessons here than checking two or three times. Landing a 747 at a wrong airport is not a simple mistake. It took a chain of events to lead to this.
Once again, how does firing these pilots lead to an effective tool for learning in the future?
It will make people afraid to make honest mistakes. When they make an honest mistake they won't report their mistake and try to cover it up. Under that type of culture, no one will learn.
I am sure there are more lessons here than checking two or three times
I am sure there are more lessons here than checking two or three times
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
+1. I used to work for a shop that would terminate people for much less. Pilots would just lose the paperwork if something happened. No lessons learned. The day I quit was a good day.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
So you give the Asiana pilots crap for an honest mistake, but want to give these guys a free pass? I don't get it.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Asiana's crash resulted in injury/death.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
This very well could have. So dumb luck is how we determine punitive action?
Seggy
Well-Known Member
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
I have to keep clear of this thread, but a mistake that causes injury/death is not a "no harm, no foul" event that might simply result in retraining.
CaptBill
Well-Known Member
We tend to think of the guys that do things like this as the "weak or inept" among our pilot groups.
I've shared this story before but there was a crew that landed a 737 at the wrong airport in 1997.
When I finally got the details, I was absolutely shoked to hear that it was my all-time favorite pilot HERO in the Captain's Seat. He was the very definition of professionalism and I had always seen him as the guy to emulate, and frankly, still do. He's still here thankfully and much has been learned about what happened, how it happened and more importantly how to avoid it from happening again.
Point is.... It could happen to any of us, despite most of us thinking "I would never do that."
Accepting our vulnerabilities is a good start to managing them.
I've shared this story before but there was a crew that landed a 737 at the wrong airport in 1997.
- May 11, 1997 - A Continental Airlines 737, bound for Corpus Christi, Texas (CRP), mistakenly lands at Cabaniss Field, an abandoned Navy airfield.
When I finally got the details, I was absolutely shoked to hear that it was my all-time favorite pilot HERO in the Captain's Seat. He was the very definition of professionalism and I had always seen him as the guy to emulate, and frankly, still do. He's still here thankfully and much has been learned about what happened, how it happened and more importantly how to avoid it from happening again.
Point is.... It could happen to any of us, despite most of us thinking "I would never do that."
Accepting our vulnerabilities is a good start to managing them.
There doesn't have to be bent metal necessarily. Incidents can be investigated for safety purposes, especially high profile ones. Remember, NTSB is safety concerned, not punitive concerned.