atracnitrix
PODUNK
Ah, Goodyear's MU-2 Blimp! But really, you make a valid point. I'd be like going to graduate school and completely skipping college. Those were the days!
Oversea Low Time Pilot Possibilities?
- Thread starter atracnitrix
- Start date
The Italian
Well-Known Member
This in normal in Europe as well. The EASA has approved the MPL course which is a 0-to-hero path with just around 50 or 80 hours in real airplanes and always with an instructor and the rest in sim. After 200 hours of training (inc. sim) they immediately fly as FO's on the airliner. Once the "pilot" has logged 1500 hours he will have his/her unfrozen ATPL.
British Airways and other European and ME carriers are running this flight training program in conjuction with training institutions such as CTC or OAA.
TWP
Well-Known Member
What kind of business jets?
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Zondaracer
Well-Known Member
Wet CPLs is for Panamanians, 1000TT for ex-pats
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
Did you catch his name?
jynxyjoe
Queso King
In 2004-05 I knew a guy who CFI'ed a little at Farmington just after I graduated, who was paying for the 737 type to fly for a Chinese carrier, tried to convince me that was the way to go. I was young and considering it a little but Gulfstream made no sense to me and that made less. He ended up with a type and no job, sent his stuff to a new low cost one out of Singapore, no dice. He was a real go getter and at some point he ended up at an airline but it wasn't flying 737's, though for all I know he is now. I understand you can't be afraid of making mistakes, but without a job offer signed, it's tough for guys like me to rationalize paying for a type.
I talked to a republic FO about 4 months ago who was a new hire, and his experience showed the airline paid more because it was steady work. Are CFI's getting work anymore? I keep hearing the same gripes there's no students unless you've got a contract with the Asians?
JustinS
Well-Known Member
At the universities it's easy to instruct with a steady flow of students recruited by the school. I believe it's the part 61 schools outside of universities that really struggle to retain or even complete a student's training. However, I have seen some CFIs be able to build a strong student base outside of the 141 environment. Takes a lot of hard work and strong people skills.
Goonie
Never say die
I just got back from Shanghai to meet with some airlines and they are hurting bad for pilots. The smaller newer LCC's are privately owned and have a lot more flexability when it comes to hiring expats. Of course, they prefer expat captains, but I was on four flight DFW-ICN-PVG-ICN-DFW and all the crews were expat from the states or EU. I talked to an American Korean Air FO at the Hyatt Regency bar at ICN and he said they are dying for pilots at KE. I would try KE first, but yeah, not with 250 hours.
No way a 250 hour expat is getting a job in Asia unless they do marry a Chinese girl. That is pretty damn easy too. I was there for a week and every 30 minutes I would get hit on by a Chinese girl.
No way a 250 hour expat is getting a job in Asia unless they do marry a Chinese girl. That is pretty damn easy too. I was there for a week and every 30 minutes I would get hit on by a Chinese girl.
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
I did, but I"m horrible with names. Said he was an instructor in the CRJ.
Goonie
Never say die
Sounds like you've got your finger on the pulse of things better than most. Did you get any indication that these Chinese airlines might admit they're in over their heads and will have to change the current pilot criteria if they intend to carry out the proposed business plans for all the airlines there ?
I understand they're training people at full tilt but it's a numbers game.
Did you see anything indicating they might consider turning to lower-time expats for FO spots ? Entrenched, constipated bureaucracies are very slow to change but money has a way of affecting even bureaucracies.
I understand the interest in this issue by the original poster. The young people aren't necessarily saying they intend to spend a working lifetime as an expat but rather just get a career jump start by going overseas to fly bigger airplanes a bit sooner (other countries have done this for a long time ) than it might happen here at home. Maybe both parties could benefit from a change of criteria ?
Everyone can see the ads from the expat market but rarely get the real skinny on all of this.
If you're able to give people a peek behind the expat curtain in an evolving pilot market, I'd bet many young folks here would like to hear what you've got to say.
Thanks.
Goonie
Never say die
Well it took me months of playing the handshake/email game to get this far.
First I went to Xi'an China to an aviation expo back in October, met a bunch of people in the industry, collected business cards and went from there. One thing you must understand about the Chinese business culture is they do not do business like the Americans. You can not simply email bomb the companies and expect a response, they do business kinda old school with business cards and handshakes. Besides, most of the shot callers at the airlines do not even speak English so they will just trash your email anyway. I have a translator that translates all my emails. Between that and the time difference it makes it pretty difficult to have any fast communication with them..
So I finally got a meeting with a newish privately owned airline in China. I can't say the name yet but will be able to soon. Anyways, they had 500 openings last year and only got 300 resumes that met their minimum qualifications. That tells you a lot about the growth their. I have seen it with my own eyes how they are building cities faster than the UAE. There are airlines popping up like crazy.
Now as of right now most of the airlines require 500 hours in type for and expat to be considered but at some point that has to stop. There is no way hiring can keep up with demand with that sort of FO minimum qualification. Keep in mind an expat weather its Captain or FO is going to be way more expensive than a Chinese National so they are always going to get the jobs first. They are sponsored by the airlines for the most part so i would bet their pay is less than our regional pay.
I believe there will be a window where they will be forced to hire low timers overseas until the Chinese training catches up. Just my opinion but I think its unavoidable.
I would highly suggest going to the Airline convention in Shanghai March 2014. All the airlines will be there! Get some business cards made, one side english, one side mandarin, seriously. Once you trade cards and give handshakes you are well ahead of the game.
Also, Shanghai is a very nice city so you will enjoy yourself in that aspect and be able to ask yourself if you can live here. They have an "American Town" which is technically called The French Concession. There is a huge expat community in Shanghai so there you will see all the big chain restaurants like TGI Fridays and Hooters. Obviously you don't want to travel to Shanghai to eat at Hooters but it is probably a little taste of home for people that live over there.
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KLB
Well-Known Member
My attraction to the airlines has been the ability to get home some and be with the family. Im going to pursue corporate/charter flying in South Florida (most ideal) for about six more months before I begin seriously looking abroad.
Have you found any work out there? How is the family handling it?
Goonie
Never say die
@KLB ill PM you in a few about work over there.
I talked to my family, they are on board with me going to test the waters for a while before they make the jump. A lot of companies offer 11 consecutive days off for expat work so it won't be that bad for a while. Of course the commute is a long one! Most of the major cities have a huge expat scene which makes it easier for families who get homesick. Also, you could sell the fact that any kids will get 10 times the education over there.
I talked to my family, they are on board with me going to test the waters for a while before they make the jump. A lot of companies offer 11 consecutive days off for expat work so it won't be that bad for a while. Of course the commute is a long one! Most of the major cities have a huge expat scene which makes it easier for families who get homesick. Also, you could sell the fact that any kids will get 10 times the education over there.
ChasenSFO
hen teaser
It's all about who you know, I once had the opportunity to train and fly in the Philippines. It still would have required that I get married, which was part of the plan. Glad I didn't do it.
Almost always, carriers will require more time for Western expat then a local. And the pay for the low-time gigs isn't great. Yes, in local currency you'll be upper middle class as far as your income goes with most of the jobs, but in US currency, it's not much to send home. Also, you can't "pass ride"(nonrev) or commute on most of them. If you can, your segments are limited, interlining is non-existent for most expats. And forget about jumpseating. In fact, many low time Asian carriers with expats have a third pilot riding in the jumpseat. That's 3 guys, 2 of them reaking from chain smoking cigarettes on every turn, crammed into an ERJ-145 cockpit flying all day in rual china.
Trust me, I spent over 2 years researching this stuff almost everyday certain flying in Asia was the way to go after high school. Those jobs that make the grass look greener want guys with a type and time in that type, they aren't low time. That being said, I once read about a Korean Air expat opening that wanted American's with a 747-400 type and like 3,000 hours PIC or something like that. If hired, you would be flown in biz class positive space to/from the US from the Korean Air destination of your choice over to Seoul everytime you start a trip, where the airline would pay for your housing. You were promised "great respect and admiration" from the Korean people as well as tons of time off. The pay was just shy of $300k a year. Again, very limited flight benefits though for you and your family. Question is, by the time one has reached a point in their career where they find themselves with 3,000 PIC in a 747-400, is it worth it to switch to an international contract company and lose the ability for you and your family to travel? You'd likely be close to retirement at that point. There is a reason these jobs pay so well, they have to.
Almost always, carriers will require more time for Western expat then a local. And the pay for the low-time gigs isn't great. Yes, in local currency you'll be upper middle class as far as your income goes with most of the jobs, but in US currency, it's not much to send home. Also, you can't "pass ride"(nonrev) or commute on most of them. If you can, your segments are limited, interlining is non-existent for most expats. And forget about jumpseating. In fact, many low time Asian carriers with expats have a third pilot riding in the jumpseat. That's 3 guys, 2 of them reaking from chain smoking cigarettes on every turn, crammed into an ERJ-145 cockpit flying all day in rual china.
Trust me, I spent over 2 years researching this stuff almost everyday certain flying in Asia was the way to go after high school. Those jobs that make the grass look greener want guys with a type and time in that type, they aren't low time. That being said, I once read about a Korean Air expat opening that wanted American's with a 747-400 type and like 3,000 hours PIC or something like that. If hired, you would be flown in biz class positive space to/from the US from the Korean Air destination of your choice over to Seoul everytime you start a trip, where the airline would pay for your housing. You were promised "great respect and admiration" from the Korean people as well as tons of time off. The pay was just shy of $300k a year. Again, very limited flight benefits though for you and your family. Question is, by the time one has reached a point in their career where they find themselves with 3,000 PIC in a 747-400, is it worth it to switch to an international contract company and lose the ability for you and your family to travel? You'd likely be close to retirement at that point. There is a reason these jobs pay so well, they have to.
typhoonpilot
Well-Known Member
Problem is the education for one child in Shanghai is $30,000/year at the American schools. That is a huge deal breaker for many people with families. The big corporations that send their people to these places pick up the cost of tuition for their employees. That doesn't happen with pilot contracts these days.
http://www.concordiashanghai.org/
http://www.saschina.org/
Typhoonpilot