Low time pilots, and low paying jobs

FL350

FL350

Well-Known Member
Note that this was originally written as a response to the job posting looking for a Citation FO with 500tt and offering a $22k salary. It's apparent that this would not be a respectable position to take, my question is what is respectable?

After reading through this forum and others, along with talking with other pilots.. I have a question that no one seems to be able to clearly answer thus far.

As a relatively low time pilot myself I am very fortunate to have a job flying part 135 in a jet requiring two crew. I don't make the best money in the world, but I am getting paid for it, and flying with very experienced captains. In my opinion it's a good place to be. And from what I've heard about regional airline FO's I am very grateful to be where I am! I instruct on my off time as well, but my ultimate goal, like many of us, is to be sitting in the left seat.

What I am trying to find out is what you advise low time pilots to do? I completely understand and agree with the viewpoint that being a pilot is a big responsibility and pay should be commiserate with that.

The guys that take these low pay servant type jobs probably don't know any better in the first place.

Basically I'm just trying to find what people think is a respectable thing to do? If the pay was more, but the 500hr minimum was still there, would that be acceptable? Regionals were hiring FO's with this kind of time and less in the past..
 
I don't think there is anything wrong with taking that job at 500tt if it payed more. $22k is way too low for a Citation FO but I don't know what exactly would be fair. If it helps, I broke $30k my first year at the regional with arguably the worst paying contract.
 
What's respectable is what you think is respectable. I made $12k a year as a first year graduate teaching assistant and thought I was living like a fat king. That wouldn't cover my kids' daycare expenses now - not even close.
 
Troy said:
I don't think there is anything wrong with taking that job at 500tt if it payed more. $22k is way too low for a Citation FO but I don't know what exactly would be fair. If it helps, I broke $30k my first year at the regional with arguably the worst paying contract.
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I broke 30 also (not including per diem, because that doesn't count!) flying borne the 1900 and Super Sexy Saab.

It can be done.
 
We pay more than that to fly a 206... just sayin, but we like to keep people around for a while if we can.

If that job works for someone then, you know, whatever. I don't know why they're offering that, maybe you don't fly that much, maybe you fly a lot and people move on really quickly. If it works for someone...
 
Has a lot to do with how many hands are in your paycheck too. For some reason everyone thinks a pilot makes money and has finagled himself as a line item on the payroll deductions column.
 
Great responses from everyone.
@PGT I completely agree. Good points from everyone, I already have a somewhat similar job slightly higher pay.
It seems to me SIC in the jet would be much better than anymore PIC in the 172, I'm sure thats where the first 500hrs are anyway.
 
You're going to get a mix of answers. In all honesty, I don't think any one of us at 500tt would turn down a right seat jet job for 22k a year, I know I wouldn't have.

I highly discourage anyone low time to fly for free, the whole idea is sickening to me. You're a professional, and are worth something, but that being said, it's hard to argue taking a job if they're paying you. If you don't sit in that seat for 22k, I guarantee another low time pilot would be there before the words "No thanks" even left your mouth. Is it low for that position? Absolutely. Is some low time pilot going to change the mind of the owner who believes 22k is fair? Realistically speaking, I don't believe so. I have a couple friends that worked at certain airlines who brought home less then that their first year.
 
FL350 said:
Great responses from everyone.
@PGT I completely agree. Good points from everyone, I already have a somewhat similar job slightly higher pay.
It seems to me SIC in the jet would be much better than anymore PIC in the 172, I'm sure thats where the first 500hrs are anyway.
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Wow, just WOW! If I was running a sleazy operation I would hire people that think like this, then enjoy putting the screws to them day after day!
We've all been at the beginning of one career or another at some point, so I understand the motivation to progress and succeed, but how do you think you'll feel about this sort of practice when it is applied to you later on in your career?
I'm of the opinion that we should all try to raise the bar, not drag everyone down and make them feel fortunate to " have the opportunity to fly a neat airplane "
 
It all comes down to choices and what you can afford to do. It's a free country for the most part, so if you can live on that, by all means and don't give other people's opinions a second thought. They're certainly not going to take care of you.

With that said, I wouldn't take this job...now. It would be a pay cut and the only incentive would seemingly be the equipment, which doesn't interest me in the grand scheme of things. Back when I had 500, who knows? I might have taken it. It all depends on someone's personal situation. You can certainly do better though in "lesser" equipment. The last time I made less that 22k was my first instructing job, and I've never flown anything bigger than a 402 or 208.

If you can afford it, do it. You're not going to impact the industry any worse than it already has been.


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I've always disliked the arguments against low paying jobs. Everyone is different, including our financial scales. Your super low paying job is my mid paying job. If your skills can get you a better gig, then take it. If my skills can get me this gig, then let me take it. We have different priorities. I accept the insight but it may not dissuade me from experiencing it myself. It's like people who have taken drugs and say not to do drugs. I am thankful for the information, but I still may want to experience it because your experience may have been completely different.

Our work scales are also not the same. I may enjoy things that you hate. If it turns out that it's too much work for the pay, then there will be turnover. I'd still do it for some experience. Does it drag everyone else down financially? Maybe it does, but everyone drags someone else down in some way. Maybe your good networking skills are dragging down my experience. I prefer to not look at it negatively though like everyone is out to undercut someone somehow. We all use our own pros to get what we can.

Besides, a lot of people take out $50,000 in debt for school/training. How is unacceptable to take a hit in pay for the first couple years instead of going into debt? Spread that debt out over 3 years and this gig pays $38,000 per year.
 
I'm agreeing with the last couple statements. It all depends on so many variables that are not discussed in simply asking if a Citation FO position is worth more than 22K.

Variables include:

Do you have a family?
Can you live with someone else to help curb expenses?
Are you younger or older?
Simply, can you yourself live off of 22K?
Does the Job have performance reviews before a year is up that could significantly increase your pay?
How much time does the job actually require so you may be able to find other contract work on the side?
Do you personally want to do other contract work on the side if said job opportunity allows time for it?
Does the job let you live where you want to?
Do you even care where you live?
What perks are included outside of 22K? (benefits, Hotel points, flyer miles etc...)
Are they fixed on the pay as advertised or can you use your magical gift of gab to negotiate them up?

I could go on indefinitely on these variables, but the truth of the matter is that it's whatever YOU are willing and able to do. This especially pertains to the Corporate and Charter industries as most are run with a business format. Everyone has heard the stories of guys working their way from the mailroom to CEO, and in contrast, the horrible brown noser getting promoted and the better candidate getting laid off. It's all a risk in breaking into any business so I say if it puts you in a slightly better position for the next step and can make it work, all while keeping you somewhat sane, go for it.

Not being union and falling in line with the seniority list can have a lot of advantages that won't keep you at 22K for long or at all. OR it could have you at a really crummy company with no chance for growth or improvement. And they can all have you out on the street at a moments notice! Some plans work and some don't, but now you have Citation time to add to a resume. Except if getting that time drove you to insanity and you can't fathom working another flying job. Dang, there's those variables again ;)

Man! My replies are always way too long winded, but I can't help it.
 
mat said:
I've always disliked the arguments against low paying jobs. Everyone is different, including our financial scales. Your super low paying job is my mid paying job. If your skills can get you a better gig, then take it. If my skills can get me this gig, then let me take it. We have different priorities. I accept the insight but it may not dissuade me from experiencing it myself. It's like people who have taken drugs and say not to do drugs. I am thankful for the information, but I still may want to experience it because your experience may have been completely different.

Our work scales are also not the same. I may enjoy things that you hate. If it turns out that it's too much work for the pay, then there will be turnover. I'd still do it for some experience. Does it drag everyone else down financially? Maybe it does, but everyone drags someone else down in some way. Maybe your good networking skills are dragging down my experience. I prefer to not look at it negatively though like everyone is out to undercut someone somehow. We all use our own pros to get what we can.

Besides, a lot of people take out $50,000 in debt for school/training. How is unacceptable to take a hit in pay for the first couple years instead of going into debt? Spread that debt out over 3 years and this gig pays $38,000 per year.
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People have seriously lost good paying jobs to people like you. People on this very board have had their boss come up to them and say that they have found a person that will do the same job for half the price and if they don't take the cut they will go with the other guy. It happens out there more often than you expect.

Good networking skills of others dragging you down is one of the worst cop outs I have ever heard. How lazy of you.

Perhaps your networking skills are lacking as it seems you are unwilling to listen to more experienced people? At some point your "mid-paying" job will be a low paying job and you certainly will get the experience of losing your job eventually. The people taking out the large loans are the same people that didn't listen to the more experienced people already in the industry. Making one bad decision does not excuse you to make more.

Going your own way regardless of what others say is the exact thing that causes people to put your name in a black book labeled "do not hire". How do I know? Well, I have networked with people in the position of hiring (major airlines and corporate) and when asking for advice they tell me you never know who you have in your Jumpseat or are drinking at a bar with. One of my contacts has blacklisted people from being hired at his airline based on his observation of them from the Jumpseat.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Outside of 121, pilots are generally paid about what they're worth, from what I can tell. Which is why I need to break in to 121.
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The secret then, is to get pilots to be worth more by providing more value to the operation. An enterprising pilot who figures out how cut fuel costs, figure out the right preventative MX plan, or generate revenue by selling seats (provided there's a 135 cert) on empty legs is more valuable than a newb FO.
 
hook_dupin said:
The secret then, is to get pilots to be worth more by providing more value to the operation. An enterprising pilot who figures out how cut fuel costs, figure out the right preventative MX plan, or generate revenue by selling seats (provided there's a 135 cert) on empty legs is more valuable than a newb FO.
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That didn't work for the Eastern mechanics for very long.

The problem is that once all that is figured out they shed you for someone that is cheaper. Loyalty isn't what it use to be.
 
FL350 said:
Note that this was originally written as a response to the job posting looking for a Citation FO with 500tt and offering a $22k salary. It's apparent that this would not be a respectable position to take, my question is what is respectable?

After reading through this forum and others, along with talking with other pilots.. I have a question that no one seems to be able to clearly answer thus far.

As a relatively low time pilot myself I am very fortunate to have a job flying part 135 in a jet requiring two crew. I don't make the best money in the world, but I am getting paid for it, and flying with very experienced captains. In my opinion it's a good place to be. And from what I've heard about regional airline FO's I am very grateful to be where I am! I instruct on my off time as well, but my ultimate goal, like many of us, is to be sitting in the left seat.

What I am trying to find out is what you advise low time pilots to do? I completely understand and agree with the viewpoint that being a pilot is a big responsibility and pay should be commiserate with that.

The guys that take these low pay servant type jobs probably don't know any better in the first place.

Basically I'm just trying to find what people think is a respectable thing to do? If the pay was more, but the 500hr minimum was still there, would that be acceptable? Regionals were hiring FO's with this kind of time and less in the past..
Click to expand...


Depends on the tips, bro! And don't forget in-kind tipping...
 
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