A Real Discussion About the Dreamlifter Accidental Landing

queeno said:
as a former USAF Tower Controller I would not want to be in the shoes of the crew at KIAB tower that night, Military atc ops though similar to Civ atc ops in many ways are a totally different beast and in the eyes of the military they may (depending on the facts ) be held just as culpable as the pilots for this.
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Look how the USAF fried ATC local controllers at KPOB for the 1994 midair between the F-16 and the C-130, which resulted in the F-16 hitting the C-141 that was preparing to load troops.

Even though it was the responsibility of the F-16 to clear his flight path during his SFO maneuver, as well as the WX being VMC and clear, where see and avoid applies.
 
MikeD said:
Look how the USAF fried ATC local controllers at KPOB for the 1994 midair between the F-16 and the C-130, which resulted in the F-16 hitting the C-141 that was preparing to load troops.

Even though it was the responsibility of the F-16 to clear his flight path during his SFO maneuver, as well as the WX being VMC and clear, where see and avoid applies.
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I remember reading about that one, the reason I think the USAF came down so hard on the controllers at POE tower was that there was a trainee working local control and the trainer had his back to him and was not actively watching him (they were having a bull session in the tower). But you got to remember the military catch all phrase "dereliction of duty" !!!!!!
 
Are they allowed to use CVR data when there wasn't an emergency? Will an ASAP protect the crew here?
 
mikecweb said:
The only thing I'll add to this is they never called the field in site per the atc recordings. They stated they were established on the RNAV and that was all, landed at the wrong place. They very well may have seen an airport and proceeded visually without regard to the instrumentation but they were never cleared a visual approach.
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Wow....
 
genot said:
AAO doesn't have an RNAV 19L. Dual runways either for that matter. Still doesn't alleviate ATC in my mind under normal ops.
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At night, they often only have one runway with the lights on even with dual runways. Saves electricity. So, dual runways, at night, might not be a good way to identify the airport cause only one runway might be illuminated. Also, at night on a long straight in approach, it can be pretty hard to tell a 6000 foot runway from a 12000 foot runway.
 
I asked in the 'other' thread, but at what are they commited to landing in that heavy of an a/c? Suppose you realize you are in the wrong place when does the "oh shlt, power up' become a moot point?
 
JEP said:
I asked in the 'other' thread, but at what are they commited to landing in that heavy of an a/c? Suppose you realize you are in the wrong place when does the "oh shlt, power up' become a moot point?
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At least on the 757/767, trying to go around once you've deployed a reverser is a bad idea.
 
dasleben said:
Didn't know you moved up. Congrats!
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I wish. That's the only FCTM I had on hand. YMMV, void where prohibited.

I can dig out the EMB 145's books, but I wouldn't go around once a TR is deployed. It just sounds like a common sense thing.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
At least on the 757/767, trying to go around once you've deployed a reverser is a bad idea.
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Assuming reversers dont get deployed on the descent....I probably wasnt clear or asking my question in the best manner....,So say I am descedning at a rate of 'x' fpm and I am now 'y' feet agl, at what point am I committed to touching down. Or at what point is it too late for the engines to spool back up and go around without touching down....

Could they have noticed on the descent they were about to touchdown in the wrong place, gone around (without touching down) and gone to the correct field.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
............................
Incidentally, I've been to BEC and ICT during the day. "Right on top of each other" doesn't even begin to describe the proximity of all of those airports there. The proximity there makes CMA-OXR look positively long haul..................
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Whoa! These two airports are 11nm apart; one on the far southwest of Wichita and the other to the far east of Wichita. Far from being "on top of each other"
Autothrust Blue said:
............................Well, yes, that sort of airplane needs a team (2 is a team) to fly it...
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Mine was a reply to the question as to whether the plane would be flown by "team screw up". The answer was "No, Atlas flew in a different "team of pilots from NY" to fly it to McConnell.

Amazing this happened; even if you're like @Nick and don't "spend your time gazing at the east ramp". Just how big this mistake was can be assessed by looking at the area via Google Earth.

P.S. I tried to upload the image but can't figure out how to make them small enough to upload.

MikeD said:
Is ICT TRACON co-located with IAB? I ask because TUS TRACON is actually at DMA, the Air Force base, though not co-located with DMA tower.
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No, they are not. TRACON is based at KICT.
 
dustoff17 said:
Whoa! These two airports are 11nm apart; one on the far southwest of Wichita and the other to the far east of Wichita. Far from being "on top of each other".
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You're right. I looked at it again. I was thinking Beech and Cessna. "My bad."
 
1121_jabara_airport.jpg
 
Oh, Jabara (KAAO) and McConnell (KIAB); 9 miles apart!

I thought you were refering to the Cessna-Pawnee airstrip just north of your letter "B"..


Hacker15e said:
So, will the crew's employment at Atlas survive it...or get fired?
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My vote is "fired".....
 
I doubt anyone gets fired. They have a union. I'd bet if you looked at other incidents like this the crew just got "retrained". Exception might be if there were preceding issues. I hope they don't get fired.
 
JEP said:
I asked in the 'other' thread, but at what are they commited to landing in that heavy of an a/c? Suppose you realize you are in the wrong place when does the "oh shlt, power up' become a moot point?
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You can go around from almost altitude. I've seen as low as 30' without touchdown in the whale.
 
z987k said:
Hilariously so.

"Caravan 123, check gear down, cleared to land 14."

"Caravan 123, gear down and welded, cleared to land 14."
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I remember flying one of the Metlife blimps (Snoopy 2) into Ellington Field in Houston last year.

I know they have to do it, but the calls for me to "check gear down" always brought a chuckle or two.
 
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