JetBlue worries about losing pilots

matman said:
The difference between the right and left seat is a seniority number.....not skill. Those skills are already learned. That's an expectation of ANY pilot not just those with 4 stripes. Welcome to the 21st century.
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The difference between seats should be a matter of experience, knowledge, maturity, and decision making ability. Sorry to hear it isn't that way in your sphere.
 
SteveC said:
The difference between seats should be a matter of experience, knowledge, maturity, and decision making ability. Sorry to hear it isn't that way in your sphere.
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Are you saying 'merit based upgrades' are a better way to handle if one gets to move over to the left seat? Or that companies should hire direct entry captains?

A better way of looking at what you said would be, 'companies should hire Captains that sit into the right seat until they are mentored, molded, and trained how to be a Captain. Then when their seniority number allows them to hold the left seat (if they choose), it should be a very easy transition.'

If a company has good standards and training practices to enhance the molding of First Officers into Captains, everything you talk about is taken care of.
 
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amorris311 said:
Todd I think you can come down from that point of view. You know as well as everyone else that there has been a great stagnation in the industry for the past six years. We are now just starting to see movement and guys have the requisit amount of time to make sound decisions. I think you would be hard pressed to find a majority of FO's with less than 3000 hours in type. They pass the same check rides as their captain counterparts, and as mentioned above, the only thing that holds a lot of them back in seniority.
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I'm hardly one of those 3 stripe right seat captain guys. But I've carried some weaker captains through entire trips lately in both decision making and ability.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Having been in the hot seat of an airliner (or military aircraft, corporate aircraft, whatever), responsible for making the decisions, is a reasonable expectation of anyone getting a job at a major carrier.
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Todd, there are countless numbers of FOs who have had to make operational command decisions OUTSIDE the Cockpit in previous career fields.

The Left Seat is certainly something that most of us should strive for, however, I would stand on any number of command operational decisions made in my AF career as a reflection of my ability to sit in the "hot seat."
 
in my experience most of the captains have this attitude:

I'm in this left seat cause my number came up...I passed the check ride, fed ride and am here because I held out. Only difference (most of the time) between me and the FO is that I sign the release and I get paid more...also I might get called first if an issue comes up.

just a perspective I get from most of the CA's I've flown with in my 3.5 year 121 career...
 
Dugie8 said:
If your operation or YOU are operating in such a way that the professional in the right (starboard) seat isn't just as involved in the decision making process as you in the left (port) seat; are. There's a problem.
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Bingo. There are 2 pilots for a reason. The old saying of "not my fault" and "it's all my fault" seems to be the common theme in 3 vs 4 stripes. Unfortunately, it's a good joke and poor example.

As a guy who spent 5 years in the right, 2.5 ish in the left, back to the right, likely back to the left, trained new hires, downgrades, upgrades,transitions, initials, flown with 250 hour wonders, 20k hour FO's, 25K hour CA's, and a significant spread between.. ALL AT THE REGIONAL LEVEL.. I'm likely to get criticized. That's fine. Experience was joked about as "flying or window-licking". Unfortunately, that joke is true. Knowledge, well you either keep up to date or "study to pass". Maturity, completely individual. I've flown with 21 year olds who act 55, and 55 year olds who act 21.. So that's still an individual quality. At the end of the day, it's point A to B safely. It takes a team of 2 guys to make it all work smoothly, efficiently, and safely. Seniority DOES matter in the last 6 years of industry hell. I've had FO's that I would think should be CA's immediately and CA's that should be FO's. Each flight had its own challenges. Having a seniority based system in a "perform or fired" industry only works by previous precedent.


Flak jacket... On.
Checklist complete.
Care meter... INOP.
 
I'm lucky. I fly/flown with the same 6 guys for the last 7 years. I wasn't really "trained" for upgrade I was deemed ready by everyone else when the slot opened up.

That all being said, I was ready because we don't subscribe to an outdated model of "Only the Capt is right". We operate as a crew, make decisions as a crew, succeed as a crew. We also hire the correct person, not the size of a number in the TT column.
 
I think we are confusing two issues. Having PIC time doesn't mean your a better pilot. But it is a different job than the FO has, and companies want to see that. Read your FOM and look at how many times it says "the captain shall..." And how few times it mentions the FO.
 
surreal1221 said:
Todd, there are countless numbers of FOs who have had to make operational command decisions OUTSIDE the Cockpit in previous career fields.

The Left Seat is certainly something that most of us should strive for, however, I would stand on any number of command operational decisions made in my AF career as a reflection of my ability to sit in the "hot seat."
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That's great. But your experience is far from typical, and HR really has no efficient way way of screening for it. Requiring prior PIC experience is a reliable way of determining prior experience in a command role.

Sorry if it offends the SNAPs, but I don't think you should get a waiver from a long-time common sense requirement just because you suffered through some industry stagnation.
 
HR should stop hiring typical pilots. What a concept.

I am in no way saying that companies should not have whatever hiring "guidelines" as they like. They're welcome to do whatever the hell they want and I am sure enough of us will gladly line up to play the game. All I want to pass along is that, while perhaps not a significant number, there are those of us who have command experience OUTSIDE the cockpit that use basic and complex leadership skills that can easily be compared to comparable cockpit leadership / decision-making actions.

However, this discussion also highlights a trend that I am very concerned with. I have noticed a lower level of priority in discussing sound aeronautical decision making. CRM has been shelved in favor of TEM, with very little - if any - discussion in training environments regarding successful and sound CRM utilization.

Now - back to your regularly scheduled JetBlue concerned about pilots leaving for better paying organizations thread.
 
I believe the focus on turbine PIC started when upgrades at regionals were 6 months to a year. If you were an FO past 5 years, there was something wrong with you. Turbine PIC used to mean that you had good experience. Lacking it meant you were probably damaged.

Those days are over. A 7 year FO knows how to make decisions. He has seen most everything. He is, for all intents, as experienced as a guy who has upgraded. Sure, there a mental shift associated with going to the left seat, but I think that's over stated, especially since these guys will be hired into a first officer position.

So how exactly is a 7 year regional FO not qualified to be a major airline FO for 7-10 years? I'm sorry. I just don't see it.

I was a captain at a regional. Big effing deal. Most of my experience was in my 6 years as a regional FO. I really think it boils down to ego...
 
surreal1221 said:
HR should stop hiring typical pilots. What a concept.
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I don't think that HR looks to hire typical pilots at major carriers. Quite the contrary, actually, with preference being given to those with masters degrees, or even doctorates, for example. But a major airline is hiring a captain-in-training. The best way to be sure that someone can be a captain is to hire someone who already has been.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
That's great. But your experience is far from typical, and HR really has no efficient way way of screening for it. Requiring prior PIC experience is a reliable way of determining prior experience in a command role.

Sorry if it offends the SNAPs, but I don't think you should get a waiver from a long-time common sense requirement just because you suffered through some industry stagnation.
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I'm sorry. The gulfstream grad is referring to others as SNAPs? I'm not usually one to pull that card, but c'mon man.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Having been in the hot seat of an airliner (or military aircraft, corporate aircraft, whatever), responsible for making the decisions, is a reasonable expectation of anyone getting a job at a major carrier.
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It's also reasonable that those in the left seat at regionals move on up. They decided not to, either because the economy sucked, no one was hiring, or they were too comfortable in the left seat making money/good schedules to leave. My "reasonable expectation" was never met, and it wasn't my fault. Today I'd be a 7th year FO there with still no upgrade in sight and probably a furlough in 2014-2015.

The difference between the right and left seat is a seniority number.....not skill. Those skills are already learned. That's an expectation of ANY pilot not just those with 4 stripes. Welcome to the 21st century.
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Thank you. +1
 
Heck, if you listen to Pinnacle FOs (and soon to be FOs), we are apparently logging lots of OE and check airmen time with people who can't fly out of a wet paper bag. So, yes @ATN_Pilot, we have plenty of CA experience as FOs now. Lol.

The stories I hear are interesting. I call BS, but interesting.
 
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