Approach plate question

Thanks for all the input guys. I now understand the "procedure NA" part. However, try to be in CFII shoes for a sec. Imagine saying this to a student flying a C172 in IMC: "as soon as you hit HIGAP, just make a right turn, then guesstimate an intercept angle (don't forget wind correction) and hope the LOC needle twitches before WALOX." I can see the look on their face (or the look on a Chinese students face. Nothing against Chinese, but guys teaching them will know what I mean).

Maybe I'm being way too technical, but thats just the way I am. Below is the Jepp version if anyone is interested in beating this plate up anymore. BTW the turn is depicted after HIGAP on both the overview and profile, so that seems like a printing error on the faa charts.

krmn jepp.jpg
 
proxima3003 said:
Thanks for all the input guys. I now understand the "procedure NA" part. However, try to be in CFII shoes for a sec. Imagine saying this to a student flying a C172 in IMC: "as soon as you hit HIGAP, just make a right turn, then guesstimate an intercept angle (don't forget wind correction) and hope the LOC needle twitches before WALOX." I can see the look on their face (or the look on a Chinese students face. Nothing against Chinese, but guys teaching them will know what I mean).

Maybe I'm being way too technical, but thats just the way I am. Below is the Jepp version if anyone is interested in beating this plate up anymore. BTW the turn is depicted after HIGAP on both the overview and profile, so that seems like a printing error on the faa charts.

View attachment 25311
Click to expand...

Call up or email the FAA charting office. I did for a few printing errors on an approach into GJT. They failed to print the solid line found in the profile view as well as the mandatory "do not descend lower" lines underneath published altitudes. I wish there was a cash reward program in place for finding and reporting errors! I wouldn't spend so much time watching TWC and grabbing hotel coffee every 2hrs.
 
proxima3003 said:
Thanks for all the input guys. I now understand the "procedure NA" part. However, try to be in CFII shoes for a sec. Imagine saying this to a student flying a C172 in IMC: "as soon as you hit HIGAP, just make a right turn, then guesstimate an intercept angle (don't forget wind correction) and hope the LOC needle twitches before WALOX."
Click to expand...
Don't you do that when teaching holds? This approach is sooo much easier than intercepting the inbound after a parallel entry especially if the hold is a DME fix. (Holding is another topic we tend to overcomplicate).

Besides, why would an instrument student confront this for the first time in the air? Ground isn't for passing the knowledge test; it's for discussing procedures like these.
 
proxima3003 said:
Thanks for all the input guys. I now understand the "procedure NA" part. However, try to be in CFII shoes for a sec. Imagine saying this to a student flying a C172 in IMC: "as soon as you hit HIGAP, just make a right turn, then guesstimate an intercept angle (don't forget wind correction) and hope the LOC needle twitches before WALOX." I can see the look on their face (or the look on a Chinese students face. Nothing against Chinese, but guys teaching them will know what I mean).

Maybe I'm being way too technical, but thats just the way I am. Below is the Jepp version if anyone is interested in beating this plate up anymore. BTW the turn is depicted after HIGAP on both the overview and profile, so that seems like a printing error on the faa charts.

View attachment 25311
Click to expand...

To be honest, that is exactly what I would do. I might even use a cross radial to help maintain SA on the approach, such as the 175 radial from BRV and see what DME distance that gives you. You could even do it throughout the turn. I am all about watching rates of motion of needles.
 
n57flyguy said:
I might even use a cross radial to help maintain SA on the approach, such as the 175 radial from BRV and see what DME distance that gives you. You could even do it throughout the turn. I am all about watching rates of motion of needles.
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That's really good!!! :)
 
proxima3003 said:
Maybe I'm being way too technical, but thats just the way I am. Below is the Jepp version if anyone is interested in beating this plate up anymore. BTW the turn is depicted after HIGAP on both the overview and profile, so that seems like a printing error on the faa charts.
Click to expand...
Or just a different way of depicting it. You'd need to look at other similar FAA approach charts to see if it's an error or a convention. AeroNav may simply be assuming we understand that airplanes don't make sharp turns on a dime.

Edit: looks like it might indeed be an error compare this approach into Lincoln.
00232IL18_0001.gif
 
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MidlifeFlyer said:
That's really good!!! :)
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Like you said don't overcomplicate it; let DME do the math for you if you feel naked during that phase of the approach. Hit say the 10 DME on the 130, 140, 150, and 160 radials from BRV. You'll probably be established roughly 12 miles from the LOC
transmitter....but who cares so long as you are established?
 
n57flyguy said:
Like you said don't overcomplicate it; let DME do the math for you if you feel naked during that phase of the approach. Hit say the 10 DME on the 130, 140, 150, and 160 radials from BRV. You'll probably be established roughly 12 miles from the LOC
transmitter....but who cares so long as you are established?
Click to expand...
Absolutely agree. It's the same concept as an arc.

It's also similar to a little trick I learned some time ago from a DPE for VOR holds - put the holding fix in NAV2 with the OBS rotated 90° off from the holding course. It provides a needle indication of station passage in addition to the To/From flag in NAV 1 and is more peripherally noticeable.

In these days of GPS nav, we all sometimes forget the basics of what we did before. I'm still trying to retrain myself to consistently use NAV2 to load the VORs and turn the OBS when flying VOR to VOR en route instead of relying solely on the magenta line.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Absolutely agree. It's the same concept as an arc.

It's also similar to a little trick I learned some time ago from a DPE for VOR holds - put the holding fix in NAV2 with the OBS rotated 90° off from the holding course. It provides a needle indication of station passage in addition to the To/From flag in NAV 1 and is more peripherally noticeable.

In these days of GPS nav, we all sometimes forget the basics of what we did before. I'm still trying to retrain myself to consistently use NAV2 to load the VORs and turn the OBS when flying VOR to VOR en route instead of relying solely on the magenta line.
Click to expand...

That is an excellent tip for holding. I will have to try that.

I do my best to back up my GPS nav as well. Just another aid to keep your head in the game.
 
Bringing this back up...

After locating the KLINK approach which, even on the FAA chart, depicts the natural extension of the turn beyond the fix, I wrote to the charting office. With the shutdown, they just got back to me:

Thank you for your concern, The Tear drop depiction on the profile view of the KRMN ILS or LOC RWY 33, Orig will be re-evaluated and corrected.
Click to expand...

So keep an eye out for a minor charting amendment...
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Bringing this back up...

After locating the KLINK approach which, even on the FAA chart, depicts the natural extension of the turn beyond the fix, I wrote to the charting office. With the shutdown, they just got back to me:



So keep an eye out for a minor charting amendment...
Click to expand...

Very cool!
 
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