Delta 757 diverts Pasco for Cargo Overheat

Autothrust Blue said:
My point is more that "overflying a suitable airport when the planned destination is 'only' a few minutes farther away is a bad idea when directed to land at the nearest suitable airport." Mission accomplishment isn't worth it in the airlines.
[
Click to expand...

Fully agree here. No need to bypass a suitable airport at all. Heck even if no fire service, but has an adequate runway and a fire dept that can be called on unicom or tower or from approach? Sounds good.

Generally speaking, I just get worried about overreliance on checklists and procedures when it's to the detriment of sound judgement in an unusual situation, complex emergency, or when it goes against basic airmanship.

AA191s crash is one of the best examples of this. The best intentions of the crew; calm, composed and competent, and followed their procedures to the letter.........and it killed them.
 
MikeD said:
Fully agree here. No need to bypass a suitable airport at all. Heck even if no fire service, but has an adequate runway and a fire dept that can be called on unicom or tower or from approach? Sounds good.

Generally speaking, I just get worried about overreliance on checklists and procedures when it's to the detriment of sound judgement in an unusual situation, complex emergency, or when it goes against basic airmanship.

AA191s crash is one of the best examples of this. The best intentions of the crew; calm, composed and competent, and followed their procedures to the letter.........and it killed them.
Click to expand...

They told us in CRM last year that when they broke down all of the abnormals we have in a year, something like under 2% of the are not fully covered by a procedure.

Thus, the chances of us having an abnormal that requires action outside of the QRH is small, and the chances of us screwing things up when we try to make up our own procedures for benign abnormals is high.

So while you're not wrong, what you're talking about isn't very likely, and it'd generally better to just follow the book.
 
jtrain609 said:
They told us in CRM last year that when they broke down all of the abnormals we have in a year, something like under 2% of the are not fully covered by a procedure.

Thus, the chances of us having an abnormal that requires action outside of the QRH is small, and the chances of us screwing things up when we try to make up our own procedures for benign abnormals is high.

So while you're not wrong, what you're talking about isn't very likely, and it'd generally better to just follow the book.
Click to expand...

The book covers the vast majority of items, but the book does not replace sound judgement, nor does it cover all items, or even compound emergencies. Sound judgement rules the day, even when following the checklist.

I just stress to people, don't throw a potential card away just because it's uncomfortable or new to you. It may save your life someday......someday when you potentially become the modern day Al Haynes. As I said, it's for those unusual situations such that I related above, like a fire you can't control. AA191 was also a good case for sound judgement, even apart from the damage sustained.
 
jtrain609 said:
They told us in CRM last year that when they broke down all of the abnormals we have in a year, something like under 2% of the are not fully covered by a procedure.

Thus, the chances of us having an abnormal that requires action outside of the QRH is small, and the chances of us screwing things up when we try to make up our own procedures for benign abnormals is high.

So while you're not wrong, what you're talking about isn't very likely, and it'd generally better to just follow the book.
Click to expand...


People bash the procedures of USAir 1549 because they didn't run a QRH. I don't think they really had time to run the QRH, maybe not even time to pull it out. Sometimes, you just have to do some of that pilot stuff and concentrate on flying the airplane. If there is time, use the QRH. When you are quickly running out of options, fly the airplane into the ground, rather than crash it into the ground.

I have a feeling you agree with that though.
 
mshunter said:
People bash the procedures of USAir 1549 because they didn't run a QRH. I don't think they really had time to run the QRH, maybe not even time to pull it out. Sometimes, you just have to do some of that pilot stuff and concentrate on flying the airplane. If there is time, use the QRH. When you are quickly running out of options, fly the airplane into the ground, rather than crash it into the ground.

I have a feeling you agree with that though.
Click to expand...

They actually did run the QRH but didn't finish it.
 
jtrain609 said:
Shut your mouth!
Click to expand...

Actually I am going to keep going.

In my mind the QRH is a guide that SHOULD be followed, BUT, if you have a damn good reason (like loosing your engines at 2000 feet out of LGA) you can deviate from it. Just be ready to answer, "why did you deviate from the QRH?", when you sit down and talk about what happened.

USAirways 1549 is a perfect example of deviating from the QRH and using it moreso as a guide.

Skiles was actually the Pilot Flying when the birds hit the aircraft. When Sully realized there was a problem, the first thing he did was, and this ultimately saved their ass with the Airbus flight control system, was to start the APU. No memory items for him to do so, they didn't have the QRH out yet (starting the APU is on the QRH Ditching Checklist for the Airbus, but it is quite a few steps into it), Sully just used his piloting skills and understanding of the situation as it was unfolding to start the APU to get that generator online. Then he said 'my control' and took over control of the aircraft. Why? It wasn't because he thought he was a better pilot than the First Officer....he just realized that the First Officer was a new transition to the Airbus and would have a better understanding of the QRH as he recently went through training.

Then Skiles pulled out the QRH and started to go through the ditching checklist. Problem with that was it is like 3 pages long and was designed for an aircraft to ditch from altitude, not 2000 feet. So there was no way he was going to finish it, he knew it, put the QRH down, and helped figure out where they were going to put the aircraft.

Perfect example of the balance of using the QRH as a very important guide, but also using piloting skills to handle the situation.
 
If my probability of surviving the crash is greater than surviving the fire, i'm gonna consider it a suitable landing area. Just my opinion. Thanks for the suggestion, don't think I would have considered it otherwise.
 
lightspeed said:
If my probability of surviving the crash is greater than surviving the fire, i'm gonna consider it a suitable landing area. Just my opinion. Thanks for the suggestion, don't think I would have considered it otherwise.
Click to expand...

They key thing to remember is that uncontrolled/onboard fires are no joke. Time is your enemy. If I remember right, the studies have shown you have on average of about 15 minutes before you are unlikely to survive the scenario. There is a chance you may not be able to make it to a traditional "suitable airport." Decide accordingly.
 
Pasco is great layover.

There are over 100 wineries in the area, an indoor gun range, and lots of women with liberal morals.

What's not to like?! :-)
 
mshunter said:
People bash the procedures of USAir 1549 because they didn't run a QRH. I don't think they really had time to run the QRH, maybe not even time to pull it out. Sometimes, you just have to do some of that pilot stuff and concentrate on flying the airplane. If there is time, use the QRH. When you are quickly running out of options, fly the airplane into the ground, rather than crash it into the ground.
I have a feeling you agree with that though.
Click to expand...


Seggy said:
No I didn't as the information you had was incorrect.
I've never heard about that flight crew being 'bashed' for not running a QRH.
Click to expand...
Really, because in nearly the same breath, it sure seems like you do. If I didn't know any better, I'd say you were just being a dick, well, just to be a dick. See the bolded, underlined, and italicized part of my original post, and read it carefully. I said "I think" which means I wasn't 100% that they had done it completely. As for the "Well I've never," yeah, ironically, what I read here, and what I hear in person sitting in the crew room are usually complete opposites. Go figure. It's to bad cursing gets edited out.

Seggy said:
Actually I am going to keep going.

In my mind the QRH is a guide that SHOULD be followed, BUT, if you have a damn good reason (like loosing your engines at 2000 feet out of LGA) you can deviate from it. Just be ready to answer, "why did you deviate from the QRH?", when you sit down and talk about what happened.

USAirways 1549 is a perfect example of deviating from the QRH and using it moreso as a guide.

Skiles was actually the Pilot Flying when the birds hit the aircraft. When Sully realized there was a problem, the first thing he did was, and this ultimately saved their ass with the Airbus flight control system, was to start the APU. No memory items for him to do so, they didn't have the QRH out yet (starting the APU is on the QRH Ditching Checklist for the Airbus, but it is quite a few steps into it), Sully just used his piloting skills and understanding of the situation as it was unfolding to start the APU to get that generator online. Then he said 'my control' and took over control of the aircraft. Why? It wasn't because he thought he was a better pilot than the First Officer....he just realized that the First Officer was a new transition to the Airbus and would have a better understanding of the QRH as he recently went through training.

Then Skiles pulled out the QRH and started to go through the ditching checklist. Problem with that was it is like 3 pages long and was designed for an aircraft to ditch from altitude, not 2000 feet. So there was no way he was going to finish it, he knew it, put the QRH down, and helped figure out where they were going to put the aircraft.

Perfect example of the balance of using the QRH as a very important guide, but also using piloting skills to handle the situation.
Click to expand...
 
mshunter said:
I guess I had bad info. Thanks for clarifying.
Really, because in nearly the same breath, it sure seems like you do. If I didn't know any better, I'd say you were just being a dick, well, just to be a dick. See the bolded, underlined, and italicized part of my original post, and read it carefully. I said "I think" which means I wasn't 100% that they had done it completely. As for the "Well I've never," yeah, ironically, what I read here, and what I hear in person sitting in the crew room are usually complete opposites. Go figure. It's to bad cursing gets edited out.
Click to expand...
FTFY
 
mshunter said:
Really, because in nearly the same breath, it sure seems like you do. If I didn't know any better, I'd say you were just being a dick, well, just to be a dick. See the bolded, underlined, and italicized part of my original post, and read it carefully. I said "I think" which means I wasn't 100% that they had done it completely. As for the "Well I've never," yeah, ironically, what I read here, and what I hear in person sitting in the crew room are usually complete opposites. Go figure. It's to bad cursing gets edited out.
Click to expand...

We have folks (like I was at one point) who are reading this thread who are new pilots and it is imperative they get factual information. I don't want someone who is reading this post to say to themselves, 'well Sully didn't use the QRH so if I don't, things will turn out OK.'

We are doing the community a disservice if we don't get factual information out there concerning accidents/incidents.
 
Gonzo said:
CA put the airplane into a aggressive descent to land in Martinsburg WV a airport that we have no charts and zero airline service over any number of airports in the area with AMR service and we have chats for.
Click to expand...
Aggressive descent or emergency descent?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top