Beating a dead horse - SIC type question

CFI A&P

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Here's a scenario that was presented to me by a student on a hypothetical (which means the student already did this and is really asking "How do I log this?") and I already have my thoughts on this. So, I would like to propose it to the forum and what the consensus.

Airplane operates as part 91 domestic operations only. The airplane is Citation 550, which by type certificate is a two pilot aircraft. The left seat pilot is ATP mulit engine land, PIC typed for the aircraft, does not have a single pilot waiver, is not a flight instructor of any kind, nor a check airman, DPE or anything other than pilot. The right seat pilot has a commercial multi engine with instrument rating and no previous time in type. As the question goes, the left seat pilot asks the right seat pilot if they would like some flight time, blah blah blah...

Can the right seat pilot fulfill the duties of an SIC? Unless I am missing something, as I read it, 14 CFR 61.55 requires records of training, and sole manipulator of the controls for three landings PRIOR to acting as the SIC.

Discuss.
 
Pax or not, you have to meet 61.55, paragraph G is the only way you can log with or without Pax until you do the rest of the things in 61.55 like familiarize yourself with the airplane and get your 3 landings.

here is paragraph G

(g) The holder of a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating is not required to meet the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section, provided the pilot:
(1) Is conducting a ferry flight, aircraft flight test, or evaluation flight of an aircraft's equipment; and
(2) Is not carrying any person or property on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.
 
Even under conditions of paragraph G, you must meet the conditions of (b)(1). Would this be a logbook entry? Does it require an endorsement? Who can give the endorsement?

(b)
(1) Become familiar with the following information for the specific type aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested—
(i) Operational procedures applicable to the powerplant, equipment, and systems.
(ii) Performance specifications and limitations.
(iii) Normal, abnormal, and emergency operating procedures.
(iv) Flight manual.
(v) Placards and markings.
 
Even under conditions of paragraph G, you must meet the conditions of (b)(1). Would this be a logbook entry? Does it require an endorsement? Who can give the endorsement?

(b)
(1) Become familiar with the following information for the specific type aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested—
(i) Operational procedures applicable to the powerplant, equipment, and systems.
(ii) Performance specifications and limitations.
(iii) Normal, abnormal, and emergency operating procedures.
(iv) Flight manual.
(v) Placards and markings.
There is no endorsement required, if I had to guess (this is only a guess) the owner/operator of the plane should keep track of the training given incase the FAA FSDO ever wants proof.
 
I guess I got sidetracked and did not answer your question, were you wondering if for the three landings if the pilot can log SIC? In that case yes, the logbook can show SIC for the three landings, and in fact should as a record of the landings.
 
I would tell my student that they should understand the applicable FARs before crewing on any aircraft. The fact that your student didn't know is a problem. You might also counsel your student that future employers might raise an eyebrow when they see something like this. Logbook debates rarely lead to jobs.
 
In addition to the 3 take offs and landings to a full stop, 61.55 also requires maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of a PIC.
 
I would tell my student that they should understand the applicable FARs before crewing on any aircraft. The fact that your student didn't know is a problem. You might also counsel your student that future employers might raise an eyebrow when they see something like this. Logbook debates rarely lead to jobs.

Oh, I know exactly how they "thought of" this question. A pilot offered the right seat up for one or more of the following reasons: because the regular FO was unavailable, having a disagreement, or paying a contract pilot wasn't an option.

My standard explanation for situations like this is: If you don't know your role, and the requirements for that role - then your role is a passenger.
 
The left seat pilot can complate all the necessary training and complete the paperwork required for the SIC type if he wants. Cheap way to go..........
 
The left seat pilot can complate all the necessary training and complete the paperwork required for the SIC type if he wants. Cheap way to go..........

Can you point me in the direction of what allows the left seat (non-instructor, non-check airmen, non-chief pilot, etc...) to do this?
 
My only question is this: Who is acting as the SIC in the intervening period between when your friend starts doing his 3 landings and when he finishes? As far as I am aware, you cannot land without taking off and who is acting as SIC while he is getting his 3 landings? The aircraft requires 2 pilots, so how is it being operated while he gets those 3 landings?

Additionally, according to 61.3 only an authorized instructor may endorse a logbook to show training (any training.) Perhaps you do not need your "record of training" to be inside your logbook, but thats pretty thin.
 
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Can you point me in the direction of what allows the left seat (non-instructor, non-check airmen, non-chief pilot, etc...) to do this?
Check 61.167(2)


EDIT: @SpiraMirabilis brings up an excellent point. I believe you can train a SIC under the conditions set forth in this post. I would recommend ALL requirements be completed prior to the flight portion of the training.
 
I dont see anywhere in 61.55 that mentions "flight training" nor "endorsement". All I see is that the SIC needs to become familiar with information (b)(1) and have the required experience(b)(2), it also explicitly gives the SIC a waiver in order to gain that experience(f).
 
I dont see anywhere in 61.55 that mentions "flight training" nor "endorsement". All I see is that the SIC needs to become familiar with information (b)(1) and have the required experience(b)(2), it also explicitly gives the SIC a waiver in order to gain that experience(f).

I think you're quoting this:
61.55(f)

The familiarization training requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to a person who is: ..
(3) Designated as the second in command in that specific type of aircraft for the purpose of receiving flight training required by this section, and no passengers or cargo are carried on the aircraft; (emphasis added)


So, yeah, I guess you can do the flight training with no pax or cargo.
 
A qualified ATP holder can train in the aircraft. After this training and log book endorsements, the SIC can log time without going through all the headaches of IACRA documentation. If the flights will be international, then you must complete the paperwork for the type rating. Also, a new requirement is to have an established training program; a simple outline will suffice....nothing yet that requires it to be "approved" but to be safe it wuolf be a good idea....when the gub'ment opens...
 
There is no endorsement required, if I had to guess (this is only a guess) the owner/operator of the plane should keep track of the training given incase the FAA FSDO ever wants proof.
The training pilot is required to endorse the logbook (or other training record) of the student (SIC wanna be) as proof of the training..
 
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