SWA Landing gear collapse at LGA

zmiller4 said:
I flew with a notorious Eagle CA (who shall remain nameless, but let's just say he thought age rules didn't apply to him) on an epic 3-day repo extravaganza a few months off of IOE. I had thought of captains--especially senior ones--as infallible until that point (I think it was a somewhat cultural thing in SJU), so the trip was *really* eye-opening.
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I can only imagine. We have some real gems here. A few claim to have stayed because of golden handcuffs but I think some are still here because nobody in their right mind would take them on, what with skeletons and all.

One of our most infamous flowed to AA and allegedly had trouble with the training so he told them he needed medical leave because he was HEARING VOICES. I'm sure he got that leave, but hey- when you invent the windows in the space shuttle, you've always got someplace to go, right? ;)
 
When in the right seat, my basic test is: Is this idiot going to A) Kill me or somebody else or B) Get an accident or violation on my record? If not: Goto line 2

2) Do not give a crap.

Conversely, when in the left, I find that the best F/Os are the ones that quietly watch me do stupid stuff, then give me a little bit of good-natured crap when I correct.

It makes trips a lot more pleasant if you can check the "I'm better than him/her, he/she is in my seat" stuff at the door, IMHO. Right next to the "This youngun has nothing to say to me, RESPECT MAH AUTHORITAY" crap. I mean, we're all adults, right?
 
Boris Badenov said:
It makes trips a lot more pleasant if you can check the "I'm better than him/her, he/she is in my seat" stuff at the door, IMHO. Right next to the "This youngun has nothing to say to me, RESPECT MAH AUTHORITAY" crap. I mean, we're all adults, right?
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You'd think so, but when the skipper has a 110 degree turn to make to get on the outbound course on a VOR approach and waits until after station passage, botches the correction, makes an arbitrarily timed ('eh, close enough') left turn to final while the FO barking for him to turn at all while they're in and out of the scud with elevated terrain in the vicinity, all the while telling the FO to calm down cuz the SKIPPER HAZ THIS! somebody needs an attitude correction. Allegedly his reasoning behind continuing the approach as was? He's got 8 miles of protected area around those approach courses, right? Right?

Say WHUT?

The little stupid things aren't so bad. But when you've got somebody belligerently raising the level of stupid and then pulling rank, then what? This stuff matters- CRM still gets balled up and kicked behind a bag cart all too often these days.
 
I'll put it to you this way. I've had two or three occasions upon which I really felt like I had to step in as the F/O because the Generalisimo was doing something stupid. And I did it relatively pleasantly. "Oh, uh, hey, shouldn't we maybe turn the radar on?" etc. Or, memorably "Uhm, hey, you know the flaps are still at 15, right" (as I put them up and we accelerated through flap speed +10 or so). On the other hand, I've been "corrected" repeatedly by F/Os with a quarter of my my time (and near as I could tell, very little relevant "experience") on things that were really just a question of personal preference and didn't exceed any limitations or break any laws more times than I can count. I responded pleasantly to those, too. In some cases, I just did it their way (which was also totally safe and reasonable) with an offhand remark about how "gosh, I didn't see that in the AFM" and a laugh. In other cases, I said something like "nah, I'm probably going to do it this way because (insert reason)".

There aren't any hard and fast rules about this stuff, and there shouldn't be. That's why there are two real human beings up front...it works. But as an F/O, my first instinct is to say "hmm, now why is he/she doing it this way?" rather than "THAT'S NOT HOW I WOULD DO IT, LET ME SHOW YOU THE RIGHT WAY". Come to think of it, that's my first reaction as C/A, too. I guess my point, if I have one, is that in most circumstances the person flying the plane is doing it the way they're doing it for a reason. It may not be a good reason, and if it isn't, if I'm the C/A, the time to talk about it is on the ground unless it's an imminent danger to the flight. If I'm the F/O, the time to talk about is probably never, again provided it's not dangerous, just inefficient or, what, "irritating"? Does that make sense?

If you think about it simply as a question of Safety, good. IMHO, Safety is compromised far more often by one guy (whichever seat) critiquing everything the other guy does than it is by one guy rolling his eyes privately and letting things work themselves out. CRM doesn't function if every action becomes a member-sizing contest.

The most dangerous (two pilot) situations I've been in (at least that I can recall) were when one or the other of us was pissed off at the other one and our egos were on the line, somehow. Check em at the door until it's Serious, or so says I.
 
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Boris Badenov said:
I'll put it to you this way. I've had two or three occasions upon which I really felt like I had to step in as the F/O because the Generalisimo was doing something stupid. And I did it relatively pleasantly. "Oh, uh, hey, shouldn't we maybe turn the radar on?" etc. Or, memorably "Uhm, hey, you know the flaps are still at 15, right" (as I put them up and we accelerated through flap speed +10 or so).
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That's "hinting and hoping". It's pretty poor CRM. Kind of like saying, "wow the runway is coming up really quickly today" when the guy is flying REF+50 for some reason or, "that terrain sure is close" when the other guy busts mins on an approach. I know you know this, and what you were saying is a lesser form of it, but I just wanted to point it out.

On the other hand, I've been "corrected" repeatedly by F/Os with a quarter of my my time (and near as I could tell, very little relevant "experience") on things that were really just a question of personal preference and didn't exceed any limitations or break any laws more times than I can count. I responded pleasantly to those, too. In some cases, I just did it their way (which was also totally safe and reasonable) with an offhand remark about how "gosh, I didn't see that in the AFM" and a laugh. In other cases, I said something like "nah, I'm probably going to do it this way because (insert reason)".
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The old technique vs. operations procedure/rule argument... Sometimes you ignore it and sometimes you do it their way.

The most dangerous (two pilot) situations I've been in (at least that I can recall) were when one or the other of us was pissed off at the other one and our egos were on the line, somehow. Check em at the door until it's Serious, or so says I.
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Yep. It's pretty scary when you watch the other guy mess up and inside you are doing this...
simpsons_nelson_haha2.jpg
 
I know you know this, and what you were saying is a lesser form of it, but I just wanted to point it out.
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I do, and you're right. But that's why there are still two patties of meat in the seats. We have judgement and social skills and can recognize the difference between Imminent Flaming Death and a situation which is better dealt with by, what...Real CRM? Communication rather than contradiction and humiliation? I mean, believe you me, I'm not above telling a guy that he's a freaking idiot who's trying to kill me and punching him in the face if he persists. But, in my experience, you catch more flies with honey, etc etc. in 99% of the cases. And that actually matters when it's someone you have to deal with over and over again. It might very well be different in 121, where you'll never see the guy again, but even then, I think it remains true that you're supposed to be a Team, and anything you can do to maintain that notion (obviously within the bounds of "not crashing or getting violated") actually increases the Safety of that flight or future ones. It's not at all black and white, is it? That's why computers aren't flying these things, you know?
 
Firebird2XC said:
The little stupid things aren't so bad. But when you've got somebody belligerently raising the level of stupid and then pulling rank, then what? This stuff matters- CRM still gets balled up and kicked behind a bag cart all too often these days.
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In the words of Great Mistakes pilots everywhere, "SEEEEEEEEE-YAAAAAA!"
 
At my current gig I have to fly with the guy all the time. He is the worst. Can't land worth a damn, jokes are terrible and he smells. Worst captain ever.
 
BobDDuck said:
That's "hinting and hoping". It's pretty poor CRM. Kind of like saying, "wow the runway is coming up really quickly today" when the guy is flying REF+50 for some reason or, "that terrain sure is close" when the other guy busts mins on an approach. I know you know this, and what you were saying is a lesser form of it, but I just wanted to point it out.



The old technique vs. operations procedure/rule argument... Sometimes you ignore it and sometimes you do it their way.



Yep. It's pretty scary when you watch the other guy mess up and inside you are doing this...
simpsons_nelson_haha2.jpg
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Depending on the situation, one round of "hinting and hoping" may be okay. Of course it isn't appropriate when immediate action is required, but if you've got a little extra time, a nudge may be all that's required, and you still have time for the shove if necessary. I'm not talking about being indirect (houses sure are big, etc.). Always be direct. But you can be soft direct prior to hard, right?

What do you think? Is my attitude incorrect?
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
What do you think? Is my attitude incorrect?
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Sure. Despite what most bored housewives think these days, there are WAY more than 50 shades of grey. (you see what I did there?)

I agree that, as long as the plane isn't about to fall out of the sky, the first verbalization shouldn't be "dumbass you are 10 knots slow". However, seeing as there are tons of stories floating around out there about FOs who are too afraid to speak up EVER, I feel that the training should be towards the lowest common denominator. The expectation is for a guy to call it like he sees it. Once he gets more comfortable and confident, then he can start making the "gentle" nudges as needed.
 
GypsyPilot said:
I just flew a 2 day with a guy that felt the need to tell me when to switch to ground/tower/ramp, what to say to ATC when queried about our indicated airspeed ("Tell them we're going 290 kts"), etc. That kind of stuff turns what could be a fun trip into complete hell. I've been flying for 10 years and 4,000 hours... Pretty sure I can read the airspeed indicator by now.

Most guys and girls I fly with are great, but I just flew 2 back to back trips with guys line this!! So glad I'm starting a vacation this week. Unfortunately not everybody I fly with is a well balanced person (like @Lee D!).
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Awww shucks! How could I possibly have had any right to micro manage you when my CRJ 700 landings sucked so bad that trip? Part of our gear down before landing check needed to have "Mouth Guards ..........Checked" added to it. :D
 
When I was flying GA with another pilot, I would always include a remark in my departure pax brief to the effect of "if you see something that doesn't make sense, or seems unsafe, speak up and let me know." Do you guys use something like that in the commercial world, or is it just assumed?
 
Murdoughnut said:
When I was flying GA with another pilot, I would always include a remark in my departure pax brief to the effect of "if you see something that doesn't make sense, or seems unsafe, speak up and let me know." Do you guys use something like that in the commercial world, or is it just assumed?
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Yup.
 
Murdoughnut said:
When I was flying GA with another pilot, I would always include a remark in my departure pax brief to the effect of "if you see something that doesn't make sense, or seems unsafe, speak up and let me know." Do you guys use something like that in the commercial world, or is it just assumed?
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I say it anyway.

"If you see me doing something stupid, unsafe, or nonstandard, the odds are I'm making a mistake instead of trying to be a 'cool guy'."
 
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